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V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6) Driveshafts | Differentials | Gears | Rearends | Clutch | Shifters

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Old 08-03-2010, 10:32 AM   #1
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The New and Improved Hurst Shifter

After many months, GM's constraint on the Hurst Shifter Option has been lifted. It was with good reason that GM held the shifter on constraint until now. The current aftermarket Hurst did not meet their specification requirements in terms of lever effort. There are some here that are satisfied with their Hurst shifter, but there are many more like me (and caverman) that found it to be sub-standard by the amount of lever effort required to shift.

Yes, it is positive; you always know what gear you are in and it has a much shorter throw, but it is notchy and too stiff to move in and out of gear.

I talked to a GM Project Manager this past weekend at the Gratiot Cruise; the warm up for the Big One; The Woodard Dream Cruise in Metro-Detroit. He said their tests verified that the throw reduction on the Hurst also reduces the mechanical leverage, resulting in too much effort to shift. Therefore, the new GM approved Hurst shifter will have less throw reduction to correct that problem.

I used to drag race with Hurst shifters years ago, mostly using the legendary Hurst Competition Plus Shifter. Full throttle power shifts at 7500 rpm (302 small block) was the norm. There were no rev limiters to protect your engine back then....miss a shift, lose the motor, i.e., valves hit pistons, pistons push back....and they all step outside to settle the matter.

Those Comp Plus units had good positive movement, but the hallmark of those older Hurst units was their slick and silky smooth shifting. This aftermarket shifter for the 2010 Camaro is not in the same league. I am disappointed in mine. Again, try shifting a Competition Plus Hurst and see what a performance shifter should feel like.

To those of you that want the shorter throw, I caution you to try one out before you buy the aftermarket Hurst. There are plenty of them out there at any local cruise and car show. I see Hurst shifters in 5th Gen Camaros every week, but you won't see one on my car much longer.

The current aftermarket Hurst reduces the factory throw by 44% and I understand the new GM approved Hurst has a 22% reduction. I have a new MGW shifter that was delivered last week. It has about a 30-35% throw reduction from the stock unit. I may wait and see how the "new and improved" Hurst plays out before I make another shifter change.

Alfie
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:37 AM   #2
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:49 AM   #3
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Barton.

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Old 08-05-2010, 01:54 PM   #4
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I have noticed it being slightly more difficult to shift than the stock shifter but I still love having the white ball retro Hurst shifter and I would buy it again
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:38 PM   #5
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I have noticed it being slightly more difficult to shift than the stock shifter but I still love having the white ball retro Hurst shifter and I would buy it again
exactly
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:47 PM   #6
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Alfie-

First off, I want to thank you for choosing a Hurst Shifter and appreciate your support. However, much of the information in your post is erroneous. I know that you are working with information that was reported to you by a GM project manager, however, as we all know - managers sometimes don't have all the information available to them or sometimes it might be "candy coated" as it passes from person to person through the chain of technicians, engineers, and managers. Please, don’t read this post as any type of comment or affront on you personally as I know you are just relaying what you have heard. And please realize that I don’t normally like to comment on this product (as I prefer to let the product “speak for itself”) but in this case let me attempt to set a few things straight:

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
After many months, GM's constraint on the Hurst Shifter Option has been lifted. It was with good reason that GM held the shifter on constraint until now. The current aftermarket Hurst did not meet their specification requirements in terms of lever effort.
This is absolutely incorrect. The Hurst aftermarket shifter was never part of GM's consideration. The GM/Hurst factory shifter was developed well before the Hurst aftermarket shifter. It was originally designed with a very modest throw reduction when the project first started over three years ago. This target reduction was NEVER changed even up until now and had no bearing on the delays that occurred in the project.

The delays involved have more to do with changing production and thus validation requirements. The requirements changed when this product went from deal installed option to factory installed option. Also, the requirements changed when GM became restructured. A whole new group of tests, engineers, and managers had to re-test, re-evaluate, and re-approve when the above events occurred. New tests, meant new changes to design and new design, meant re-testing to validate the changes.

Lever effort had been established from day one. It has never been altered from the initial design intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
There are some here that are satisfied with their Hurst shifter, but there are many more like me (and caverman) that found it to be sub-standard by the amount of lever effort required to shift.

Yes, it is positive; you always know what gear you are in and it has a much shorter throw, but it is notchy and too stiff to move in and out of gear.
The aftermarket Hurst shifter was designed with a completely different set of goals. This is directly from the installation instructions that came with the Hurst aftermarket shifter:

"You can expect reduced shift throw (over 40%), increased strength and better, firmer, yet smoother and more precise feel thanks to extremely tight design and manufacturing tolerance over the stock factory pieces while utilizing an industry-first Teflon® lined spherical bearing as the main pivot; all while adding a classic or stock look to your vehicle’s interior... Furthermore, this shifter has been primarily designed as a “competition” and/or “race” shifter. As such, much of the isolation has been removed to give the driver the most direct and positive link to the transmission without compromise. In doing so, this does increase both tactile and sometimes audible levels of vibration. While every effort has been made to reduce the amount of objectionable transmission/driveline noise transmitted into the interior of the vehicle, some vehicles may experience greater amounts than others. If this is possibly objectionable or unsuitable to your intended type or style of driving, return this product to your retailer for refund prior to beginning installation."

When GM designs a shifter, they have to make it work for everybody - from a pro-race driver down to grandma and grandpa on a Sunday cruise. This is not the case with the Hurst aftermarket shifter - and it says it directly in the instructions. It has been designed for the few that will race and/or compete... it is not for everyone. Pure physics will tell you that reducing throw - reduces mechanical leverage. There's no easy way around it. However, the shift throw and effort on the Hurst shifter has been extensively tested (in-house, by many member here on Camaro5, by race teams and their drivers, and by independent laboratories) to provide the quickest and most positive shifts in harmony with the clutch, transmission and drive-train. Furthermore, Hurst left the door open for the customer to be able to bolt on any the Hurst upper sticks. This means you can change the throw (and the lever effort) simply by bolting on a different upper stick. Check the Hurst catalog: http://hurst-shifters.com/Catalog/B-M-Catalog-Online_2 (See page 30). I would suggest maybe part number 538 7238 to help increase leverage (just note that you will also increase throw).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
I talked to a GM Project Manager this past weekend at the Gratiot Cruise; the warm up for the Big One; The Woodard Dream Cruise in Metro-Detroit. He said their tests verified that the throw reduction on the Hurst also reduces the mechanical leverage, resulting in too much effort to shift. Therefore, the new GM approved Hurst shifter will have less throw reduction to correct that problem.
Again, this is not completely factual. Yes, reducing throw proportionally increases effort. But, this is true with any shifter including the current GM/Hurst version or any other shorter throw shifter (that’s just a matter of basic physics) and it’s a matter of personal preference. GM had never subjected the aftermarket Hurst shifter to the GM/Hurst shifter validation requirements. Why would they as this would be like comparing apples to oranges – they are not the same thing and do not have the same design intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
I used to drag race with Hurst shifters years ago, mostly the legendary Hurst Competition Plus Shifter. Full throttle power shifts at 7500 rpm (302 small block) was the norm. There were no rev limiters to protect your engine back then....miss a shift, lose the motor, i.e., valves hit pistons, pistons push back and then they all step outside to settle the matter.

Along with their positive engagement, the hallmark of those Hurst units was their slick and silky smooth shifting, but this aftermarket shifter for the 2010 Camaro is not in the same league. I am disappointed in mine. Again, try shifting a Competition Plus Hurst and see what a performance shifter should feel like.

To those of you that want the shorter throw, I caution you to try one out before you buy the aftermarket Hurst. There are plenty of them out there at any local cruise and car show. I see Hurst shifters in 5th Gen Camaros every week, but you won't see one on my car much longer.
The early Hurst shifters are a completely different design and function and actuate a different style of transmission (external rod actuated) that were constructed much more loosely with a much less positive feel in shifting. The earlier style shifters were able to improve the shift feel while retaining the loose yet smooth feeling of the transmission itself. Today’s internal rail transmissions are much tighter which improves efficiency but sacrifices smooth/loose shift rod movement. Much of the “feel” of shifting has much more to do with the transmission itself rather than the shifter, although the shifter does play a part in amplifying or muting that feel. The TR-6060 that is in the 5th gen Camaro is actually much improved over the T-45, T-5, T-56 and TR-3650 of even a few years ago but at times it still has the tighter general feel of these new more efficient transmission. Thus it’s really not fair to compare the old 3 and 4 speed manual transmissions to today’s efficient 5 and 6 speed transmissions. And many newer drivers expect (and actually like) this type of feel in a modern sports/muscle car transmission. I guess it’s really what you’re used to operating and your perception of what feels good.

I do completely agree with you that if you have the chance, feel any shifter before you purchase. Just like gloves, one size does not fit all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfie43 View Post
The current aftermarket Hurst reduces the factory throw by 44% and I understand the new GM approved Hurst has a 22% reduction. I have a new MGW shifter that was delivered last week. It has about a 30-35% throw reduction from the stock unit. I may wait and see how the "new and improved" Hurst plays out before I make another shifter change.

Alfie
Again, this is your personal preference and what feels right to you and your style of driving. Hurst is a racing company and supports motorsports. The aftermarket Hurst shifter is called the Billet Comp/Plus shifter (comp meaning competition) because this shifter’s first and foremost goal is to be the quickest shifting, shortest-throw race shifter, with a direct link to the transmission without compromise period. This does not fit into the majority of everyday drivers’ intended use and is not intended to do so. Hurst’s goal with its aftermarket shifter was not to sell the most shifters. It is built for a driver that is looking to be the fastest on the track.
I do thank you for trying our product, and I am sorry if it does not fit your driving style or intended use. There are many other well built and well constructed shifters on the market including the GM/Hurst factory shifter option that have a slightly different design goal. We really do appreciate your and everyone else on these forums' feedback and I wish you luck in finding the shifter that suits your needs whether it is a Hurst product or one of our many competitors.


Thank you.

-Kenji

Last edited by Kenji; 08-05-2010 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji View Post
Alfie-

First off, I want to thank you for choosing a Hurst Shifter and appreciate your support. However, much of the information in your post is erroneous. I know that you are working with information that was reported to you by a GM project manager, however, as we all know - managers sometimes don't have all the information available to them or sometimes it might be "candy coated" as it passes from person to person through the chain of technicians, engineers, and managers. Please, don’t read this post as any type of comment or affront on you personally as I know you are just relaying what you have heard. And please realize that I don’t normally like to comment on this product (as I prefer to let the product “speak for itself”) but in this case let me attempt to set a few things straight:



This is absolutely incorrect. The Hurst aftermarket shifter was never part of GM's consideration. The GM/Hurst factory shifter was developed well before the Hurst aftermarket shifter. It was originally designed with a very modest throw reduction when the project first started over three years ago. This target reduction was NEVER changed even up until now and had no bearing on the delays that occurred in the project.

The delays involved have more to do with changing production and thus validation requirements. The requirements changed when this product went from deal installed option to factory installed option. Also, the requirements changed when GM became restructured. A whole new group of tests, engineers, and managers had to re-test, re-evaluate, and re-approve when the above events occurred. New tests, meant new changes to design and new design, meant re-testing to validate the changes.

Lever effort had been established from day one. It has never been altered from the initial design intent.



The aftermarket Hurst shifter was designed with a completely different set of goals. This is directly from the installation instructions that came with the Hurst aftermarket shifter:

"You can expect reduced shift throw (over 40%), increased strength and better, firmer, yet smoother and more precise feel thanks to extremely tight design and manufacturing tolerance over the stock factory pieces while utilizing an industry-first Teflon® lined spherical bearing as the main pivot; all while adding a classic or stock look to your vehicle’s interior... Furthermore, this shifter has been primarily designed as a “competition” and/or “race” shifter. As such, much of the isolation has been removed to give the driver the most direct and positive link to the transmission without compromise. In doing so, this does increase both tactile and sometimes audible levels of vibration. While every effort has been made to reduce the amount of objectionable transmission/driveline noise transmitted into the interior of the vehicle, some vehicles may experience greater amounts than others. If this is possibly objectionable or unsuitable to your intended type or style of driving, return this product to your retailer for refund prior to beginning installation."

When GM designs a shifter, they have to make it work for everybody - from a pro-race driver down to grandma and grandpa on a Sunday cruise. This is not the case with the Hurst aftermarket shifter - and it says it directly in the instructions. It has been designed for the few that will race and/or compete... it is not for everyone. Pure physics will tell you that reducing throw - reduces mechanical leverage. There's no easy way around it. However, the shift throw and effort on the Hurst shifter has been extensively tested (in-house, by many member here on Camaro5, by race teams and their drivers, and by independent laboratories) to provide the quickest and most positive shifts in harmony with the clutch, transmission and drive-train. Furthermore, Hurst left the door open for the customer to be able to bolt on any the Hurst upper sticks. This means you can change the throw (and the lever effort) simply by bolting on a different upper stick. Check the Hurst catalog: http://hurst-shifters.com/Catalog/B-M-Catalog-Online_2 (See page 30). I would suggest maybe part number 538 7238 to help increase leverage (just note that you will also increase throw).



Again, this is not completely factual. Yes, reducing throw proportionally increases effort. But, this is true with any shifter including the current GM/Hurst version or any other shorter throw shifter (that’s just a matter of basic physics) and it’s a matter of personal preference. GM had never subjected the aftermarket Hurst shifter to the GM/Hurst shifter validation requirements. Why would they as this would be like comparing apples to oranges – they are not the same thing and do not have the same design intent.



The early Hurst shifters are a completely different design and function and actuate a different style of transmission (external rod actuated) that were constructed much more loosely with a much less positive feel in shifting. The earlier style shifters were able to improve the shift feel while retaining the loose yet smooth feeling of the transmission itself. Today’s internal rail transmissions are much tighter which improves efficiency but sacrifices smooth/loose shift rod movement. Much of the “feel” of shifting has much more to do with the transmission itself rather than the shifter, although the shifter does play a part in amplifying or muting that feel. The TR-6060 that is in the 5th gen Camaro is actually much improved over the T-45, T-5, T-56 and TR-3650 of even a few years ago but at times it still has the tighter general feel of these new more efficient transmission. Thus it’s really not fair to compare the old 3 and 4 speed manual transmissions to today’s efficient 5 and 6 speed transmissions. And many newer drivers expect (and actually like) this type of feel in a modern sports/muscle car transmission. I guess it’s really what you’re used to operating and your perception of what feels good.

I do completely agree with you that if you have the chance, feel any shifter before you purchase. Just like gloves, one size does not fit all.


Again, this is your personal preference and what feels right to you and your style of driving. Hurst is a racing company and supports motorsports. The aftermarket Hurst shifter is called the Billet Comp/Plus shifter (comp meaning competition) because this shifter’s first and foremost goal is to be the quickest shifting, shortest-throw race shifter, with a direct link to the transmission without compromise period. This does not fit into the majority of everyday drivers’ intended use and is not intended to do so. Hurst’s goal with its aftermarket shifter was not to sell the most shifters. It is built for a driver that is looking to be the fastest on the track.
I do thank you for trying our product, and I am sorry if it does not fit your driving style or intended use. There are many other well built and well constructed shifters on the market including the GM/Hurst factory shifter option that have a slightly different design goal. We really do appreciate your and everyone else on these forums' feedback and I wish you luck in finding the shifter that suits your needs whether it is a Hurst product or one of our many competitors.


Thank you.

-Kenji
Kenji
Thank you for the thorough and informative reply to my post. I appreciate the gentlemanly and constructive tone of your reply. Please understand that I do have a high regard for Hurst products and I have used many of them over a period of many years. Perhaps it was this high expectation that was the basis of my recent disappointment in my shifter.

Yes, it does appear that I did receive some erroneous information with regard to GM's selection and application of Hurst products on the 2010 Camaro. Thus, it is pointless in furthering any discussion on this aspect of the matter. I must accept full responsibility for writing inaccurate information on a public forum. I stand corrected and offer my sincere apology.

I am glad that you quoted the stipulations and conditions that is included in the instructions of the aftermarket shifter. Before I installed my shifter, I read that very carefully and was cognizant of what I should expect with my replacement shifter. I was fully prepared and willing to accept "higher tactile and sometimes audible levels of vibration" and an increase in " transmission/driveline noise levels". In the final outcome, it was the assurance of "a firmer, yet smoother and more precise feel" that I disagreed with...especially the word "smoother".

Moving on to your suggestion that I replace the upper stick, that is a possible solution that I will look into. Keeping my current Hurst shifter intact but with an improved movement would be desirable. I am willing to add some additional throw in exchange for a "smoother" and reduced shifting effort.

I did note that the catalog specifies stick #538 7238 was for shifters #391 7535, #391 5061, and #391 7960. My shifter is #391 6030. I will sort that out on the phone with Hurst tomorrow. Again, thank you for your reply.

Regards, Alfie (Mariano)
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Old 08-06-2010, 12:56 PM   #8
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Thanks for your understanding - Alfie

The longer Hurst stick #538 7238 will work on the aftermarket Hurst Camaro shifter #391 6030 and result in a 28.2% throw reduction over stock as verified by our CAD, FEA, and Sim programs. Just note that it will raise the aftermarket knob 2.5 inches over the stock knob's original position.

Also- PM sent.
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:07 PM   #9
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Kenji,

You Da Man!

(I'm the guy with IOM SS...you video recorded the shifter noise and installed the NVH kit right there in the Hurst shop many months ago)
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:50 AM   #10
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Kenji,

You Da Man!

(I'm the guy with IOM SS...you video recorded the shifter noise and installed the NVH kit right there in the Hurst shop many months ago)
The Decepticon car! I can't wait to get a supercharger on my SS.
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:57 AM   #11
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Kenji can we get that in black rather then chrome?
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:18 PM   #12
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The Decepticon car! I can't wait to get a supercharger on my SS.
I bet you can't.

off topic...

Piece of valuable advise...

Be sure to look over any potential and KNOWN issues that may be present on the car now....i.e. oil leak, tranny or diff leak, drive train noises, etc. and get those taken care of under warrrany before you add the SC.
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:37 PM   #13
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This is a great thread, cudos to Alfie and Kenji for an intelligent and repectful discussion. I loved my comp plus shifter in my 74 Camaro and I am very happy with the aftermarket Hurst on my 2010 although I am tempted to try the taller lever. Thanks to both of you!!!!
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:13 PM   #14
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This is a great thread, cudos to Alfie and Kenji for an intelligent and repectful discussion. I loved my comp plus shifter in my 74 Camaro and I am very happy with the aftermarket Hurst on my 2010 although I am tempted to try the taller lever. Thanks to both of you!!!!
My replacement "stick" has been ordered and is in shipment. It should be here by the weeks end. However, I will be out of town next week starting on the 16th. When I return, I will install the new stick and report back here on the week of the 22nd. If you are interested, stay tuned. I am feeling pretty optimistic that this will work for me.
Alfie
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Old 08-09-2010, 05:39 PM   #15
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You come across as one who is very detail oriented and won't stop til you have it exactly how you want it. I am the same way. It is a disease that cost a nice chunk of $ at times....explains the holes in my wallet. Keep us posted.
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Old 08-09-2010, 05:48 PM   #16
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My replacement "stick" has been ordered and is in shipment. It should be here by the weeks end. However, I will be out of town next week starting on the 16th. When I return, I will install the new stick and report back here on the week of the 22nd. If you are interested, stay tuned. I am feeling pretty optimistic that this will work for me.
Alfie
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65 View Post
You come across as one who is very detail oriented and won't stop til you have it exactly how you want it. I am the same way. It is a disease that cost a nice chunk of $ at times....explains the holes in my wallet. Keep us posted.
You too...huh?

Yes, attention to detail and a perfectionist approach to everything has been the reason for some of my best achievements as well as my greatest failures.

Speaking of detail, this is my other detail driven hobby.
Alfie
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:31 PM   #18
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wow cool
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:44 PM   #19
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Yo Alfie, GO BLUE!!!!!
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:46 PM   #20
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You too...huh?

Yes, attention to detail and a perfectionist approach to everything has been the reason for some of my best achievements as well as my greatest failures.

Speaking of detail, this is my other detail driven hobby.
Alfie
dang you! why did you go and show me them toys you got?!!? I have always wanted those toy planes, not just the usual ones you see being flown in the suburbian parks or beaches but the ones you got!
You are a lucky man. Where did you get/buy those? I am really interested.
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65 View Post
dang you! why did you go and show me them toys you got?!!? I have always wanted those toy planes, not just the usual ones you see being flown in the suburbian parks or beaches but the ones you got!
You are a lucky man. Where did you get/buy those? I am really interested.
Thanks. I've been building, flying (and sometimes crashing) RC aircraft for over 25 years. All of my models are what we in the hobby call "Scale", i.e., very detailed models that represent a specific full size aircraft. Most of my aircraft are in the 6'-9' wingspan range. Larger models are easier to see and they fly proto-typically (realistically).

Most of my models are built from kits and plans (blueprints). The "Cripes A' Mighty" P-51 was built from plans. It has an all wood airframe that was covered with fiberglass and resin. It took me 20 months to build. I use internal combustion engines exclusively in my models; gasoline or alcohol in the 3-5 HP range. No electrics...they're too quiet.

SoCal is a hot bed of RC aviation activity. If you are seriously interested in this hobby, I would suggest that you seek out one of the many RC flying clubs in your area and enroll in their flight training program. That is the only way to enter this sport. If you buy a pre-built model and attempt to fly it at a soccer field, you will crash your airplane and only get frustrated.

I guess I've wandered way off subject for way too long here. If you would like additional info on RC aviation, PM me for my phone number and we can talk via the telephone.

Alfie
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:10 PM   #22
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Wow! That P-51 is awesome (the other ones as well)... the P-51 has to be one of my all-time favorite aircraft: "P-15 Mustang... Cadillac of the sky."

As far as the long stick (#538 7238) goes, I tried it on my SS over the weekend. Fit and function seem to be fine. However, I will let Alfie comment once he has it installed since he will be an impartial judge.

I actually got to see a real P-51 while testing the long stick over the weekend at the airshow at NBVC (Ventura/Pt. Mugu). Unfortunately, it was a static display... the sound of that Rolls-Royce Merlin engine is un-beatable.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:14 PM   #23
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Kenji can we get that in black rather then chrome?
Unfortunately, no- they don't come that way. That doesn't mean you couldn't DIY... but unfortunately the marketing guys (I'm not one) are the ones that decide most of the styling features.
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Old 08-10-2010, 07:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Kenji View Post
Wow! That P-51 is awesome (the other ones as well)... the P-51 has to be one of my all-time favorite aircraft: "P-15 Mustang... Cadillac of the sky."

As far as the long stick (#538 7238) goes, I tried it on my SS over the weekend. Fit and function seem to be fine. However, I will let Alfie comment once he has it installed since he will be an impartial judge.

I actually got to see a real P-51 while testing the long stick over the weekend at the airshow at NBVC (Ventura/Pt. Mugu). Unfortunately, it was a static display... the sound of that Rolls-Royce Merlin engine is un-beatable.
Yes, to all that Kenji said.

P-51, the definitive "Heavy Metal" fighter of WWII.

Longer stick report coming soon.

Alfie
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Old 08-10-2010, 07:45 PM   #25
2SSRS@Gen5diy
My other car is 2014 Z/28

 
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Kenji how is your car coming, Is it in the shop are they taking care of you?.
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