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View Poll Results: Would you be willing to pay for the added cost of forged pistons and rods in the Z28?
Yes, Definitely. Forged internals would increase the value for me. 97 77.60%
Doesn't matter much to me, either way is OK. 18 14.40%
Nope, regular pisons & Rods are fine. 10 8.00%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-03-2010, 02:48 PM   #1
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Poll: Forged pistons & Rods in Z 28?

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Would you be willing to pay for the added cost of forged pistons and rods from the factory in the new Z 28?

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UPDATE: new ZL1 that is.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:50 PM   #2
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y from factory when there are aftermarket?
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:53 PM   #3
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Are you suggesting a factory option or just that GM add the cost of, say LS9 parts, into the price of Z28 and equip all Z's as such? If you're suggesting GM just add these parts straight off, then, so long as it's reasonable, I'm in. If it bumps the price another thousand or something, I don't really feel it's worth it. I believe the parts in LSA will handle more power than a lot will give it credit for; not LS9 or GT500 power, but there's potential, IMVHO.
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:14 PM   #4
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I was thinking that I prefer the forged pistons & rods, and it would cost less in both money and headache to have them in place from the factory rather than to have to put them in place later.

I'm really not sure how much more the actual parts would cost.

I would be fine with it being an engine option, but figured there would be less confusion to have all Z28s start with the same internals. Also I figured that most of the huge cost of the LS9 was the hand assembly.


(By the way, there isn't any way to edit/correct my typo in the poll, is there?)

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Old 08-03-2010, 06:31 PM   #5
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People are not giving the LSA engine enough credit. There is a huge thread in here all about the LSA. To be honest most of the guys on here wont put enough power to the crank to overstress the LSA. As a former V owner, that kind of burns me up cause most people don't even know what this block is capable of!
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Qdiesel View Post
People are not giving the LSA engine enough credit. There is a huge thread in here all about the LSA. To be honest most of the guys on here wont put enough power to the crank to overstress the LSA. As a former V owner, that kind of burns me up cause most people don't even know what this block is capable of!
Anything above 700hp I would start to worry about the pistons.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:43 PM   #7
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I don't want to pay, because I don't plan on exceeding the limits of the engine (which are VERY high).

If you want eleventy-billion hp, it's my very humble opinion, that you should pay for it -- not expect the factory to 'prepare' your car for you, and stick the rest of us with a charge for essentially, nothing.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:49 PM   #8
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Counterpoint

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I don't want to pay, because I don't plan on exceeding the limits of the engine (which are VERY high).

If you want eleventy-billion hp, it's my very humble opinion, that you should pay for it -- not expect the factory to 'prepare' your car for you, and stick the rest of us with a charge for essentially, nothing.

Fair enough, and it's a reasonable opinion, Dragoneye. I wouldn't even ask the question if it were the 2SS we were talking about, but the Z28 is going to be exceptional in many ways. If it was assembled in a normal manner rather than having everything hand polished like the LS9, I don't think the cost of trading up to forged pistons and rods would be too terribly much. That way we wouldn't need to replace perfectly good new equipment with even better new equipment.

That would also make it cheaper for the aftermarket performance folks to go big with Z28 mods, because it's one less thing to change.

You're right, I don't need it, but I'd be willing to pay for it if I can get it - even as an option, which would be fine with me.

How much difference is there between the price of the parts alone? I wouldn't even know where to look for that answer.


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Old 08-04-2010, 06:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdiesel View Post
As a former V owner, that kind of burns me up cause most people don't even know what this block is capable of!
Those powder rods are good for 700hp max.

Pistons are about the same as long as the tune is on.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I don't want to pay, because I don't plan on exceeding the limits of the engine (which are VERY high).

If you want eleventy-billion hp, it's my very humble opinion, that you should pay for it -- not expect the factory to 'prepare' your car for you, and stick the rest of us with a charge for essentially, nothing.
It has nothing to do with the HP ceiling. A bad tank of gas, a humid day, a not-so-good tune are all real world things that could happen to anyone and those hyperexplodeits are not going to stand up to detonation. The forged slugs are more for insurance.

If GM doesn't put them in it will end up like the rear-ends in the 3rd and 4th gen cars. For a small amount of money they could save everyone a ton of headaches.

A quick search on supercharged LS1's and LS2's is all you will need to be a believer. I don't care what this one says or that one says, real world testing has shown time and time again that forged is the way to go for forced induction.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarrzz View Post



How much difference is there between the price of the parts alone? I wouldn't even know where to look for that answer.


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Good question since everyone likes to talk about it being so "expensive". A good set of forged LS7 pistons costs about $750. I can't even find hyperexplodeits for a LS motor after a quick search. Lets say they are $300-400. That is MY price as a consumer, don't tell me that GM can't get forged pistons for a lot cheaper than I can.

Is an extra $500 on a $45K+ car that big a deal? They already have to assemble the engine so putting in a different piston isn't going to cost them anything.

Rods run from $700-1400 depending on the brand. I am not nearly as concerned about the rods as I am the pistons.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I don't want to pay, because I don't plan on exceeding the limits of the engine (which are VERY high).

If you want eleventy-billion hp, it's my very humble opinion, that you should pay for it -- not expect the factory to 'prepare' your car for you, and stick the rest of us with a charge for essentially, nothing.
When you're paying $50k+ for a pony car, you should expect an engine that can be described as nothing less than magic.
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Old 08-05-2010, 07:48 PM   #13
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Some things are a necessity and some things are nice to have. GM builds production cars to sell. Not production cars with overbuilt race spec engines. It's not necessary but would be nice. It's worth it to me but I can see why GM won't do it on the LSA.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super83Z View Post
It has nothing to do with the HP ceiling. A bad tank of gas, a humid day, a not-so-good tune are all real world things that could happen to anyone and those hyperexplodeits are not going to stand up to detonation. The forged slugs are more for insurance.
I trust GM engineering more than I trust people who claim their cars exploded because of a bad tank of gas...sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
When you're paying $50k+ for a pony car, you should expect an engine that can be described as nothing less than magic.
Now...THERE'S a good excuse!!

But what if it's under 50? Will 'Phenomenal' work?
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarFan View Post
GM builds production cars to sell. Not production cars with overbuilt race spec engines.


No disrespect intended, KarFan, but what then is the Z06 and the ZR1 ? They're the top of the Corvette line, just as the Z28 will be the top of the Camaro line.

I'm also not suggesting an LS9 for the Z28, just upgrading a couple of critical engine components that you don't want to fail catastrophically when under exceptional pressure. It's all a matter of where the balance point lies between price and best possible engine components. That's kinda what I wanted to know everyone's opinion on, and why I asked the question.

I'll have to agree, I would be surprised if they put forged components into the LSA for us, but at least it has been offered up as a thought. It seems to be fairly well received as an indicator of increasing the value, at least in the case of Z peeps around here.

Maybe someone will consider an "engine performance package" for 2013. I did hear someone say something about a Horsepower War with the GT500, and we want to stay in the lead after we take it.




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Old 08-05-2010, 08:38 PM   #16
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If this engine shows up without forged internals GM will receive endless crap over it. Ultimately the grief just isn't worth it on a hand assembled engine IMHO. GM should be able to offer a Z28 with forged internals for a GT500 competitive price given the parts sharing the Z28 will benefit from the GT500 doesn't have.
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Old 08-05-2010, 08:42 PM   #17
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If this engine shows up without forged internals GM will receive endless crap over it.
From their own customers, or people who breath with their mouths open?
Chances are slim they'll really get hammered over a non-issue...a few wise cracks from magazines, maybe....but hardly "endless crap". The LSA, as-is, is an incredible piece of machinery...outliving the LS9 even on the durability test.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:04 PM   #18
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The LSA was designed for the CTS-V.

Forged pistons are more money and more noisy.

It was a no brainer for GM to go the route they did.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:09 PM   #19
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From a business standpoint, I bet every salesperson would be instructed to mention "forged internals" and "outstanding durability" at some point during the test drive. That means something to everyone that reads those magazines, which means most of the people who are going to seriously consider buying one.

The LSA is a serious piece of machinery as is, but you have to admit there is some logic to forged internals standing up to more abuse than current stock equipment.


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Old 08-05-2010, 09:22 PM   #20
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really no need unless your going to hammer the piss out of it or push greater then 650 hp JMO.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:32 PM   #21
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really no need unless your going to hammer the piss out of it or push greater then 650 hp JMO.

How appropriate. One of my nicknames happens to be "Sledge."

I was told no earlier than last night that Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer" should be my theme song.

Well, that IS what she said...


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Old 08-06-2010, 12:47 AM   #22
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From their own customers, or people who breath with their mouths open?
Chances are slim they'll really get hammered over a non-issue...a few wise cracks from magazines, maybe....but hardly "endless crap". The LSA, as-is, is an incredible piece of machinery...outliving the LS9 even on the durability test.
Alright, the reality here is that cars like the Z/28 are rolling marketing campaigns pure and simple. That means that, in the end, perception matters as much as reality.

Throw in the fact that the lack of forged internals is going to have a very real consequence for the heavy duty modding crowd and yeah, there will be a real price to pay if GM skimps here. How heavy of a toll that will take on the car is up for debate.

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Old 08-06-2010, 07:17 AM   #23
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I trust GM engineering more than I trust people who claim their cars exploded because of a bad tank of gas...sorry.
Which engineer's words are you trusting? The one that put the starter wire too close to the exhaust on the early 2010 Camaros? The ones that signed off on the worst rear-end in automotive history for the 3rd gen and 4th gen F-bods? Or maybe still its the one that designed the washer fluid heating system in their SUV's that cause fires? Ever see where one of these "brilliant" engineers put the bleeder for the clutch on a 4th gen F-bod? Should I continue? I bet I could go all day.

Just because one of GM's engineers said it will be ok doesn't mean squat. I haven't met an engineer yet that can admit to making a mistake. They are all ridiculously over-confident in their decisions. Do you honestly believe that one of them would say "Yea that motor in that $50K car is junk." Of course they are going to say its good.

Perception IS everything. The LSA is a wonderful piece of machinery, it just has a glaring Achilles heel.
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:47 AM   #24
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Forged internals may not matter at this point, but you better believe if GM comes in with a gt500 killer that doesn't have forged internals, Ford is going to bump the power out of the LSA's safe range. The 5.4 already has the 660hp setup ready to go with warranty and all. It would take extremely little for Ford to offer that setup, even at the current MSRP. GM must know this and will hopefully act accordingly. Now before somebody responds with, "the LSA can easily handle those power levels" I suggest you think about this from a mass production standpoint. With a factory tune and factory pieces, the LSA will NOT safely handle those outputs well enough to warranty. There is a reason the ls9 exists and it's not because they needed another engine with a number in the name. Honestly, I would expect a blown ls3 over the LSA. I just find it too coincidental that this blower kit from GMPP would be released weeks before the z28. Why even spend the time on R&D if you're going to be releasing a blown model to the lineup less than 2 months later? Just a thought.
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super83Z View Post
Which engineer's words are you trusting? The one that put the starter wire too close to the exhaust on the early 2010 Camaros? The ones that signed off on the worst rear-end in automotive history for the 3rd gen and 4th gen F-bods? Or maybe still its the one that designed the washer fluid heating system in their SUV's that cause fires? Ever see where one of these "brilliant" engineers put the bleeder for the clutch on a 4th gen F-bod? Should I continue? I bet I could go all day.

Just because one of GM's engineers said it will be ok doesn't mean squat. I haven't met an engineer yet that can admit to making a mistake. They are all ridiculously over-confident in their decisions. Do you honestly believe that one of them would say "Yea that motor in that $50K car is junk." Of course they are going to say its good.

Perception IS everything. The LSA is a wonderful piece of machinery, it just has a glaring Achilles heel.
I was thinking more of the engineers who've designed an entire automobile, and not just tinkered with engines. The engineers who've had to design powertrains to last beyond 100,000 miles without doing a darn thing but change the oil....the guys who put their products through the most ruthless tests you can imagine...JUST to make sure a bad tank of gas won't destroy their product. Those guys.

I'll say again that IF a Z28 buyer wants to modify their vehicle beyond the limits of the engine -- it's his or her responsibility, not the manufacturer's to ensure it doesn't blow up. The majority of buyers would benefit from not having to shoulder the cost of a feature meant for the few.

But now I'm repeating myself...no, I don't think the LSA or the Z28 needs forged pistons. As is. Maybe they change things and decide to bump up the power which necessitates forged pieced. Who knows...
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