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Old 08-08-2010, 09:13 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty View Post
OnStar doesnt owe you proof of anything.





By your example, I should be able to dig up a TI-84 and use it to create adn render a Pixar like movie scene, simply by writing a program....

but wait! there are.... GASP!!! HARDWARE LIMITATIONS! can't be done!
The problem with YOUR argument is that you are trying to compare two things with such a wide disparity between them that the concept is not practical.

What we're talking about here is where two closely related pieces of hardware can be matched. Not a calculator doing the work of a render farm and HD monitor.

Stick to realistic arguments.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:20 AM   #102
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I just have to jump on this comment. First off the DOOM software was NOT modified to play on a TI-84, someone went and wrote a whole new program mimicking DOOM on the TI-84 OS. Not only that it runs like complete shit. Its barely playable. I spent all my college years playing games like that on my TI-84 and TI-92. They did work and they were better than nothing, but they were poor shells of their namesake games. So if you are using this to defend your position you have no defense.
Who cares if the software was modified or scratch written. The point is that it was written, and it worked. Your review of the "playability" doesn't change the fact it was done and it did work.

You said the magic words: "Better than nothing."

I would rather have an OnStar app that let me do some things rather than having NOTHING.

There's really only one or two things about the app inportant to me: The ability to lock the doors if I think I may have forgotten and the ability to locate the car with GPS in case it gets stolen or I can't find it in a big parking lot. Those features are well within the capabilities of the hardware.

If they have a hardware issue like insufficient RAM or no room left in the flash for the code then they can dump OnStar features I never use to make space for the smartphone app code. (I never use Turn-By-Turn, which they can remove and free up plenty of hardware resources to do smartphone support)
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:04 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
Who cares if the software was modified or scratch written. The point is that it was written, and it worked. Your review of the "playability" doesn't change the fact it was done and it did work.

You said the magic words: "Better than nothing."

I would rather have an OnStar app that let me do some things rather than having NOTHING.

There's really only one or two things about the app inportant to me: The ability to lock the doors if I think I may have forgotten and the ability to locate the car with GPS in case it gets stolen or I can't find it in a big parking lot. Those features are well within the capabilities of the hardware.

If they have a hardware issue like insufficient RAM or no room left in the flash for the code then they can dump OnStar features I never use to make space for the smartphone app code. (I never use Turn-By-Turn, which they can remove and free up plenty of hardware resources to do smartphone support)
You work in a business you need to seriously read what you just wrote and think REALLY hard about whether any business would EVER do that. Even offer an option to dump a feature that makes them money for one that is free, Seriously????

Not only that you've been screaming and yelling about how it was not possible there was a hardware issue involving this and now you just brought up two unchangeable deficiencies in the hardware that you believe would make it not work.

I rest my case.
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:22 AM   #104
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What was that? Your message was garbled. I think your dial-up connection is bad. Try switching to 1200 baud or try calling in on your Tracfone.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thank you for that.
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Old 08-08-2010, 01:33 PM   #105
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I hope it works for the 2010!!!!
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:15 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
If they have a hardware issue like insufficient RAM or no room left in the flash for the code then they can dump OnStar features I never use to make space for the smartphone app code. (I never use Turn-By-Turn, which they can remove and free up plenty of hardware resources to do smartphone support)

...well would you look at that... you mean that there MIGHT BE HARDWARE LIMITATIONS??

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Old 08-08-2010, 06:44 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Toasty View Post
...well would you look at that... you mean that there MIGHT BE HARDWARE LIMITATIONS??

As I have said before, there do not seem to be any hardware limitations to access any of the standard features. Some of the less technically savvy among us seem to be buying the excuse that there's a hardware limitation preventing this app from running. Lack of memory or "channels" or something along those lines was suggested as an example of a hardware limitation (which I reject outright). I was merely saying that if anyone actually buys that line of crap from the OnStar Spin Team, then I propose a method of working around the "limitation" excuse.

We move fast here. You have to pay attention.
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
As I have said before, there do not seem to be any hardware limitations to access any of the standard features. Some of the less technically savvy among us seem to be buying the excuse that there's a hardware limitation preventing this app from running. Lack of memory or "channels" or something along those lines was suggested as an example of a hardware limitation (which I reject outright). I was merely saying that if anyone actually buys that line of crap from the OnStar Spin Team, then I propose a method of working around the "limitation" excuse.

We move fast here. You have to pay attention.

LOL. You're now just trying backtrack, and change the spirit of what you said.

I don't think I ever said that OnStar couldnt do what is available now via an app, but what I was saying was that the NEW feature (remote start, etc) could not be added to the 2010's, likely due to hardware limitations-which for at least one post, you agreed with.

So perhaps it might be possible to write an app that would interface and lock/unlock and locate via GPS. (though I don't recall hearing if onstar can lock your vehicle remotely in current models)

Voice your thoughts/opinions to GM, but don't expect everyone else that has a 2010 to join in on your rant. Does it suck that you have a 2010 and likely won't get an update? Yeah. Is GM obligated to fix it? NOPE. That's just the way the world works.

Truth is that none of us really know the exact reason why they said it won't work, but in MY opinion, it really kind of pointless to outright INSIST that GM and OnStar are out to screw you. It is what it is.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:21 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
As I have said before, there do not seem to be any hardware limitations to access any of the standard features. Some of the less technically savvy among us seem to be buying the excuse that there's a hardware limitation preventing this app from running. Lack of memory or "channels" or something along those lines was suggested as an example of a hardware limitation (which I reject outright). I was merely saying that if anyone actually buys that line of crap from the OnStar Spin Team, then I propose a method of working around the "limitation" excuse.

We move fast here. You have to pay attention.
BUT you just listed two possible hardware limitations. You reject them outright on what basis? Do you know how much RAM or ROM is in the unit? Have you taken one apart? We see you do have technical knowledge of these things, and now you are eating your own words because your own knowledge of them has caused you to admit inadvertently that it IS possible that they aren't lying. But of course that doesn't further your cause... so slam it into reverse while driving forward. Yeah thats a smart idea.

Nice backtrack!
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:34 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
As I have said before, there do not seem to be any hardware limitations to access any of the standard features. Some of the less technically savvy among us seem to be buying the excuse that there's a hardware limitation preventing this app from running. Lack of memory or "channels" or something along those lines was suggested as an example of a hardware limitation (which I reject outright). I was merely saying that if anyone actually buys that line of crap from the OnStar Spin Team, then I propose a method of working around the "limitation" excuse.

We move fast here. You have to pay attention.
Do you even know what a channel is? You claim I don't work with these systems but you make statements that are beyond ignorant like this? Channels are not related to memory, at all. They are a physical connection that a box can connect to a system, similar to the way RC transmitters/receivers work in a RC plane. No amount of firmware upgrades are going to fix a physical limitation.

To think that they would intentionally hold back something as benign as a smart phone app to spur sales of a newer model of car is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure a few people nerd raging on the forums about the injustice of it all isn't part of their business plan to force people to upgrade to a 2011 model from 2010.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:04 PM   #111
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LOL. You're now just trying backtrack, and change the spirit of what you said.
Negative, my good sir. Go back and look at everything I have said in this topic. Why would I change my position going against everything I have said thus far for any reason other than using you as a foil to make my point?

Quote:
I don't think I ever said that OnStar couldnt do what is available now via an app, but what I was saying was that the NEW feature (remote start, etc) could not be added to the 2010's, likely due to hardware limitations-which for at least one post, you agreed with.
I have said since day one that there MAY be some features that the new hardware interfaced with that were not on our Camaros BUT every feature that we currently have NOW would be available without any new hardware.

This means IF I can do it by:

a) Calling the OnStar advisor on a phone and asking them to perform.
b) Receiving in the monthly OnStar Vehicle Report.
c) Pressing the blue button on the mirror and requesting.

...then it will not need new hardware AND should be TRIVIAL to give us the features we already have using the hardware we have.

I have said THIS much from day one.

You seem to think that I'm complaining because they don't offer the entire suite of functions and I expect them to have all the same features. This is where you are wrong. I object to them stating unequivocably that the Gen 9 hardware is REQUIRED for ANY smartphone access. I have said since this first came up that there's no reason for them to say that you NEED Gen 9 hardware to use a smartphone app. They could make a smartphone app for the features we already have. They just refuse to do it and claim they cannot because of hardware. I object to this explanation.

Let me make this clear... I don't care if they leave out some capability the hardware lacks from the app. I care that they insist that the hardware can't do ANYTHING and that no app is available for any 2010 owner.

Furthermore, the excuse that this is impossible because of the hardware we have is indicative of the plan to NEVER offer an app for us. If they just were sitting around trying to decide which 2010 models to support they would have said "We are working on ways to make other cars work with the app." not "Sorry. Your hardware is not compatible. Please look at our fabulous 2011 models."

Quote:
Voice your thoughts/opinions to GM, but don't expect everyone else that has a 2010 to join in on your rant. Does it suck that you have a 2010 and likely won't get an update? Yeah. Is GM obligated to fix it? NOPE. That's just the way the world works.
You better check the OnStar facebook page or the comments in the video they put on Youtube... More than just I am unhappy. Maybe if they weren't funneling the tax dollars that were taken from me back into political campaigns and lobbying efforts I would be less enraged at their lack of support for their loyal customers. One could argue that they ARE obligated to fix it for anyone who bought a car in 2010 forward.

Quote:
Truth is that none of us really know the exact reason why they said it won't work, but in MY opinion, it really kind of pointless to outright INSIST that GM and OnStar are out to screw you. It is what it is.
I'm only insisting because they did screw us. I only insist on factual statements.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:29 PM   #112
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BUT you just listed two possible hardware limitations. You reject them outright on what basis? Do you know how much RAM or ROM is in the unit? Have you taken one apart? We see you do have technical knowledge of these things, and now you are eating your own words because your own knowledge of them has caused you to admit inadvertently that it IS possible that they aren't lying. But of course that doesn't further your cause... so slam it into reverse while driving forward. Yeah thats a smart idea.

Nice backtrack!
I reject them outright because the hardware we have ALREADY DOES most (if not all) the functions which the app claims to be capable of.

Putting aside the features which some people claim cannot be accessed from OnStar (Remote Start... which is something that nobody with a manual can have because it's omitted on purpose for safety reasons in a manual car), let us just look at the features which we do have access to already:

OnStar can locate my car with GPS.
Onstar can unlock doors if I lock the keys inside.
Onstar can tell me the tire pressure.
Onstar can tell me the remaining oil life.
OnStar can tell me what is causing a "Service Engine" light and what action to take.

These functions are built into the car and the "protocol" to do them is in our cars and the software we currently have.

The way this works is the OnStar operator has a computer screen where they access a computer that they input our VIN number or customer ID. The computer periodically calls our car up on the verizon network and sends the command protocol to perform these actions. The car does these things when commanded. The operator at OnStar simply has a computer on their network connected to the Verizon network and they run an "App" that sends the commands to the car.

The only thing we end users lack is the protocol and security info that we need to send//receive the same commands. You see, the problem is NOT that the car cannot do anything, it's that the protocol software needed is not being created for our cars.

I'm going to speculate that OnStar created a totally new protocol for the 2011 models and it's not compatible with the 2010 protocol and they didn't want to write both protocols in their app, so they just coded the 2011 protocol since it's what they will use going forward.

(I'm simplifying this a bit here because they probably don't let the phone call the car directly. They probably have an intermediate program running on their servers somewhere that the phone app sends requests to and then the server on their end sends/receives the commands. But you get the point. The commands to do the majority of functions MUST be in the car already because the OnStar Operators would not be able to access these things in our cars.)

In summary: Anything the OnStar Advisor can do now, a phone application should be able to do by accessing the same computer network that the advisor is using to communicate to our vehicles. They are just intentionally NOT allowing people with 2010 models to access the network. This may be because they invented a new protocol, or some other reason. The main idea is that the app should be able to do the same things the advisor does without a single change in the car itself.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:32 PM   #113
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:32 PM   #114
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Negative, my good sir. Go back and look at everything I have said in this topic.
OK, I did.

Quote:
I have said since day one that there MAY be some features that the new hardware interfaced with that were not on our Camaros BUT every feature that we currently have NOW would be available without any new hardware.
You didn't make this revelation until page 4. prior to that, you merely stated that they were too stupid or lazy to write a program for the 2010's not sigling out the current vs new features.

Quote:
This means IF I can do it by:

a) Calling the OnStar advisor on a phone and asking them to perform.
b) Receiving in the monthly OnStar Vehicle Report.
c) Pressing the blue button on the mirror and requesting.

...then it will not need new hardware AND should be TRIVIAL to give us the features we already have using the hardware we have.
Not necessarily. Perhaps it's some form of different encrypted communications protocol that isnt supported by the current hardware... that might not be able to be fixed with a firmware upgrade.

Quote:
I have said THIS much from day one.
If you have, you haven't stated it well, if at all, like I said, you didn't state as such until page 4 of the thread after some of us called you on it.

Quote:
You seem to think that I'm complaining because they don't offer the entire suite of functions and I expect them to have all the same features. This is where you are wrong. I object to them stating unequivocably that the Gen 9 hardware is REQUIRED for ANY smartphone access. I have said since this first came up that there's no reason for them to say that you NEED Gen 9 hardware to use a smartphone app. They could make a smartphone app for the features we already have. They just refuse to do it and claim they cannot because of hardware. I object to this explanation.

Let me make this clear... I don't care if they leave out some capability the hardware lacks from the app. I care that they insist that the hardware can't do ANYTHING and that no app is available for any 2010 owner.

Furthermore, the excuse that this is impossible because of the hardware we have is indicative of the plan to NEVER offer an app for us. If they just were sitting around trying to decide which 2010 models to support they would have said "We are working on ways to make other cars work with the app." not "Sorry. Your hardware is not compatible. Please look at our fabulous 2011 models."
This is about the most coherent statement you have had in this thread. Had you started out explaining what you meant in the first place, we wouldn't be at this point in the thread.


Quote:
I'm only insisting because they did screw us. I only insist on factual statements.
I didn't say that you don't feel screwed. What I said was that in my opinion, GM and OnStar were not out to screw you. Meaning that you feeling screwed was not their intention.


you can not please 100% of the people 100% of the time.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:36 PM   #115
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Have some of you thought that maybe there IS a hardware limitation?
This isn't even available on all 2011s. And depending on how the technology progresses, I won't be surprised if they need a new app every new iteration of this thing.

I'm really shocked at the attitude in here...it's so irrational. Is anybody REALLY surprised that something new came out after they bought their vehicle? And to accuse them of screwing their customers by not being able to make the system work on every car ever made...geeze...


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you can not please 100% of the people 100% of the time.
Isn't that the God's honest truth.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:44 PM   #116
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Do you even know what a channel is? You claim I don't work with these systems but you make statements that are beyond ignorant like this? Channels are not related to memory, at all.
Careful who and what you call "beyond ignorant". For someone who knows so much about memory and channels you apparently have never heard about "Dual Channel RAM" or "DMA Channels". Look it up.

Quote:
They are a physical connection that a box can connect to a system, similar to the way RC transmitters/receivers work in a RC plane. No amount of firmware upgrades are going to fix a physical limitation.
The Verizon Wireless Module is a digital system. It is not restricted in the outmoded ways of analog systems. Just as my PC can connect to thousands of other computers through a single twisted pair connection, the digital module in the car can have an enormous number of "virtual" connections to other devices and computers. The limit to the number of connections is determined by the amount of memory and the speed of the processor. One more connection is not going to bring down the system.

Quote:
To think that they would intentionally hold back something as benign as a smart phone app to spur sales of a newer model of car is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure a few people nerd raging on the forums about the injustice of it all isn't part of their business plan to force people to upgrade to a 2011 model from 2010.
It probably costs a bunch of money to get the app certified and meet all the draconian safety and emissions and green energy regulations that cars need to meet these days. The testing of the app to make sure that you cannot remote start it for longer than 2 minutes (polluting) or making sure nobody gets killed by a car starting accidentally (safety) or a hacker opening the doors and stealing your laptop (liability) is probably expensive. They'd rather spend that money on political campaigns and lobby groups than provide the support to 2010 owners.

One day we will know the truth. I will definitely have this topic bookmarked so I can say "I told you so."
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:45 PM   #117
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Wow you guys are still arguing...... now I know how to get thousands of posts
It's not arguing. It's "A Teachable Moment".
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:47 PM   #118
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It's not arguing. It's "A Teachable Moment".
Believe me, my friend -- I know a teachable moment. This is arguing with a pinch of education.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:55 PM   #119
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OK, I did.
You didn't make this revelation until page 4. prior to that, you merely stated that they were too stupid or lazy to write a program for the 2010's not sigling out the current vs new features.
There was a previous topic devoted to this subject a couple weeks ago. My first post since it was revealed that they were claiming "Requires Gen 9 hardware" states exactly what I just said I stated:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=158

Quote:
Not necessarily. Perhaps it's some form of different encrypted communications protocol that isnt supported by the current hardware... that might not be able to be fixed with a firmware upgrade.
If the OnStar Advisors can tell the car to do "X" then it's already capable of doing "X" remotely.

Quote:
If you have, you haven't stated it well, if at all, like I said, you didn't state as such until page 4 of the thread after some of us called you on it.
I did not realize you were thinking this thread was the entirety of the discussion. The title says "Update" which says this is a new thread with updated info.

Quote:
This is about the most coherent statement you have had in this thread. Had you started out explaining what you meant in the first place, we wouldn't be at this point in the thread.
I'm not going to call you names. That's not helpful.
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:37 PM   #120
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:56 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
There was a previous topic devoted to this subject a couple weeks ago. My first post since it was revealed that they were claiming "Requires Gen 9 hardware" states exactly what I just said I stated:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=158

Somehow I don't think I need a facebook site to tell me anything about this subject.

Currently, OnStar has the ability to read my car's oil life and tire pressure and unlock the doors. Otherwise they would not be able to send me those nifty "Diagnostic Repoorts" in my email every month or unlock my car if I call them up. The ability to control the car has been built into OnStar for years. There is NO need to "upgrade" the car because it already does this stuff.

This "app" merely contacts the OnStar service and allows the smartphone to digitally tell the service to send the signals to the already capable car to do these things that it already can do.

This is not black magic or anything... the car doesn't need special hardware upgrades to do what OnStar has done for years.

My comments are as in-line as physically possible. I design embedded systems a lot more complex than OnStar for a living and even if I didn't I wouldn't be so gullible to believe a facebook page trumps common sense... and common sense tells me that if OnStar already controls my car when I call them with a voice line, then there's NO EARTHLY REASON for them to not be able to do the same thing using a digital message from a smartphone.

The only thing that might come into play is if they added new capabilities to the OnStar vehicle control that previously were not used, like the ability to control the windows or something. But that's 99.999% likely just a software upgrade to the car.

In conclusion, there's no way that this app cannot be used with a 2010 Camaro.



Yep... You did and I replied with the following.

I know hardware does have its limitations. I work for a company that we design Homeland Security, Military, and Law Enforcement surveillance equipment. I’m currently a US Patent holder on two wireless communication products, one of them uses GSM and mesh radio options. While developing these products we looked at several different types of GSM and mesh hardware units to integrate into the final version based off what functions the device had. During the course of development we found companies continued to update their GSM modules which allowed us to add features to our final product. Sometimes adding these new features required only firmware updates and sometimes it required hardware replacement.

In saying that I know this has nothing to do with OnStar but it comes back to my original statement each model year GM going to update their cars and sometimes there are limitations that prevent previous years from getting the option. Can GM and OnStar add this to the GEN8? Maybe. It could be that the 2010 owners have to buy a replacement module to add the feature. Right now this product App is not even out for the 2011. I still don’t agree with flaming OnStar because a year older model doesn’t have a year newer feature. I see no reason not to let them know you’re disappointed and would like to see a upgrade but your comments are going overboard IMHO.

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I give up... just not worth talking to a wall.... a wall that contradicts itself and believes the other walls are out
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to knock it over
Rogue Leader.. I agree with your comments..

I would love to see this app come out for everyone. I just don't agree with people making statements that "It can work, I know for sure" when they are not employed by OnStar and working directly on the project. Maybe at some point someone within OnStar can give us some info to the limitations as to why it's not on the 2010.
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Old 08-10-2010, 03:31 PM   #122
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what a bunch of WHINERS!!! how many of you are actually hardware or software engineers? seems to be a lot of experts in here who can do it better than GM

grow up and live with it.
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31000 for ss1 no options and who in the hell would buy a SS1 V6 for kids SS1 for girls LS3 the only way to go G8 Gxp 200lbs more my bad so lets think here 200lb more 27 less hp so 5 tenths slower now 373 gear now mabe 3tenths slower 4 door car sad so so sad
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Old 08-10-2010, 04:30 PM   #123
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I'm only insisting because they did screw us. I only insist on factual statements.
Unless you bought your car on the premise that this feature was going to be available to you in the near future, neither GM or OnStar owe anyone anything. This is a FREE feature upgrade. You may feel left out, but that doesn't mean they owe you anything. That's like saying Toyota owes me new brakes because my 2003 Tacoma had rear disc brakes and they upgraded it in 2005.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:51 PM   #124
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Thanks that was a useless response.
So it's in line with the rest of the responses in this thread?
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Old 08-10-2010, 06:14 PM   #125
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what a bunch of WHINERS!!! how many of you are actually hardware or software engineers? seems to be a lot of experts in here who can do it better than GM

grow up and live with it.
AMEN!
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