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Old 08-11-2010, 03:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
Correct. The switches are 2 small micro toggels, like an electric guitar has.

You got it! Excellent understanding. Yes there is a return line, and an additional orfice tube. Just as a rear AC would be in a van or a SUV, but the chiller has two seperate chambers where the freon & the coolant pass each other providing maximum heat transfer.

Absolutely. These are the question I want to see in this discussion.

There has been a ton of R&D put into this and the working units are doing great after app 6 months in use on a few test LS powered cars.
You mentioned no condensation to drip onto the track. There is no condensation from the chiller's interface between the coolant and refrigerent then?

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Probably for only a minute or two, but at the dragstrip you will only need it at WOT for 11-12 seconds or less, and for a roll-on race say 30 seconds? After that you have the same cooling as it would w/out the unit.
As for a road-racer, the question would be "will the drag on the engine from the AC compressor wired to be engaged at WOT as well outweigh the benifits of the cooler air charge temps?" Thats an unknown at this time, but the GTO running this for the past 6 months or so is street & dragstrip driven with excellent results.

Good question though!
Are or will you guys be verifying this?

Thanks for all the details
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:40 PM   #27
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I swear I read about something like this when they were first talking about a new generation Lightning or something...

I don't think I'd mind if I had to sacrifice some A/C performance for better engine performance, but not knowing much about A/C, I imagine if there is a bigger draw from cooling the charge, that a larger condensor would require more refrigerant and that would make up for the draw All I know, is this sounds pretty cool
You have, its called the killer chiller. I have been talking to the owner Joe for the last few months for developing one for GM cars. I believe one of the GTO guys did one this year. The Ford guys have been using it with great success, as low as 45 degree water temps with the outside temp around 75. You can see some videos on youtube, awesome results! When I install my Eforce this winter it will be the first thing I put on, and believe it or not if you run a H/E it actually counteracts the KC because it will warm up the water on a hot day. I am going to run a 3 gallon insulated tank straight to the KC and insulate the lines to keep it as cool as possible.

I am very currious to see how your chiller performs, I like the idea of the shut off to the evap and just freon to the chiller. The only negative I see is that the unit is not insulated like the KC is, do you plan to insulate it?
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:50 PM   #28
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You have, its called the killer chiller. I have been talking to the owner Joe for the last few months for developing one for GM cars. I believe one of the GTO guys did one this year. The Ford guys have been using it with great success, as low as 45 degree water temps with the outside temp around 75. You can see some videos on youtube, awesome results! When I install my Eforce this winter it will be the first thing I put on, and believe it or not if you run a H/E it actually counteracts the KC because it will warm up the water on a hot day. I am going to run a 3 gallon insulated tank straight to the KC and insulate the lines to keep it as cool as possible.

I am very currious to see how your chiller performs, I like the idea of the shut off to the evap and just freon to the chiller. The only negative I see is that the unit is not insulated like the KC is, do you plan to insulate it?
If you ran the chiller AFTER the heat exchanger, you get the best of both worlds.
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:59 PM   #29
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No. It integrates with it and cools the intercooler coolant. On the average intercooler you have the intercooler in the grill, and the coolant in that system circulates to the heat exchanger under the supercharger. This takes that coolant and chills it down drastically from what the ambient air can.

There is no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer. So ask anything you need to understand it all.
Not trying to knit pick at all I just don't want anyone to get confused, the heat exchanger is in the grill and the intercoolers are below the supercharger.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:05 PM   #30
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If you ran the chiller AFTER the heat exchanger, you get the best of both worlds.
I thought the same thing too at first, but think about it this way, lets say it is 90 degrees out and the road temp on a sunny day is easily 120. Your H/E is 12" above the road and pulling in that heat into the H/E, all the while I am trying to keep the water temp at 50 degrees! If you introduce that chilled water from a closed system back into the H/E you will actually warm the water up.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:12 PM   #31
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You mentioned no condensation to drip onto the track. There is no condensation from the chiller's interface between the coolant and refrigerent then?



Are or will you guys be verifying this?

Thanks for all the details
Correct the condesation drip from the cabin is the moisture removed from the cabin air as it is recirculated. The chiller outside does not produce any more moisture than the standard AC line does under the hood.

Yes, it has been verified by some of the guys running the KC units. The KC unit works awesome as well, but is basically off the shelf auto AC parts, where this is all purpose built. Billet adaptors, etc. As most things I produce it is ground up designed for the intended purpose.

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Originally Posted by vertc6 View Post
You have, its called the killer chiller. I have been talking to the owner Joe for the last few months for developing one for GM cars. I believe one of the GTO guys did one this year. The Ford guys have been using it with great success, as low as 45 degree water temps with the outside temp around 75. You can see some videos on youtube, awesome results! When I install my Eforce this winter it will be the first thing I put on, and believe it or not if you run a H/E it actually counteracts the KC because it will warm up the water on a hot day. I am going to run a 3 gallon insulated tank straight to the KC and insulate the lines to keep it as cool as possible.

I am very currious to see how your chiller performs, I like the idea of the shut off to the evap and just freon to the chiller. The only negative I see is that the unit is not insulated like the KC is, do you plan to insulate it?
Your 3 gal tank is an excellent idea, and you are correct on the reverse effect in very cold conditions. Remeber, and AC system removes heat, it does not generate cold. Yes, the chiller is well insulated and is enclosed in a aluminum protective shell to give uniform support and strength.

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If you ran the chiller AFTER the heat exchanger, you get the best of both worlds.
Except the heat exchanger is underneath the super charger so that would be an entire engineering issue.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:34 PM   #32
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You have it backwards, on a air to air the intercooler is up front. On an air to water the heat exchanger is up front and the intercoolers are below the SC.

Pictures

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...2FIMG_4873.jpg

Here is a picture of the intercoolers on the LS9

http://image.popularhotrodding.com/f...ntercooler.jpg

Last edited by vertc6; 08-11-2010 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:38 PM   #33
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One other question, on the vette it has an expansion valve on the fire wall and not an orphice tube. How will you route the system in that regards. Thanks for the help!
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:58 PM   #34
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One other question, on the vette it has an expansion valve on the fire wall and not an orphice tube. How will you route the system in that regards. Thanks for the help!

There is an additional expansion valve at the chiller. And an additional orfice tube. Just think of how a dual AC system works in a van/SUV. You are correct on the backward terminology...and the chiller valve bypasses the heat exchanger up front when activated so the heat exchanger does not reduce the effectivness of the chiller.
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:37 PM   #35
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How much weight would a system like this add to the car? Where is the planned mounting location?
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:47 PM   #36
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I've often thought of cooling the charge with the air conditioner...this is incredible!!

I can't wait to see it in action on a Camaro!

Since you're adding more plumbing (and therefore volume) to the A/C system, though -- will it require a addition of some refrigerant to "fill up" the system?
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:04 AM   #37
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I thought the same thing too at first, but think about it this way, lets say it is 90 degrees out and the road temp on a sunny day is easily 120. Your H/E is 12" above the road and pulling in that heat into the H/E, all the while I am trying to keep the water temp at 50 degrees! If you introduce that chilled water from a closed system back into the H/E you will actually warm the water up.
What is the water temp coming back from the SC? The air coming into the front H/E isn't going to be 120 degrees, unless you're sitting at a stoplight. While the bottom of the H/E may be 12in above the road, it spans up a good deal from there. Your outside ambient temp will be pretty much what the H/E sees. Unless i'm mistaken this setup isn't big enough to handle the entire duty of cooling the water. It's meant as a add-on to supliment the SC's H/E. Anything cooler you add to the system will be an improvement. The main question will be, will it give enough benefit to offset the HP loss from running the AC.

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Except the heat exchanger is underneath the super charger so that would be an entire engineering issue.
I'm speaking of the H/E in the front of the car.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:19 AM   #38
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How much weight would a system like this add to the car? Where is the planned mounting location?
Entire system adds about 9 lbs. It mounts behind the bumper cover.

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I've often thought of cooling the charge with the air conditioner...this is incredible!!

I can't wait to see it in action on a Camaro!

Since you're adding more plumbing (and therefore volume) to the A/C system, though -- will it require a addition of some refrigerant to "fill up" the system?

Yes, it takes more 134a as the OEM system volume is increased.


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What is the water temp coming back from the SC? The air coming into the front H/E isn't going to be 120 degrees, unless you're sitting at a stoplight. While the bottom of the H/E may be 12in above the road, it spans up a good deal from there. Your outside ambient temp will be pretty much what the H/E sees. Unless i'm mistaken this setup isn't big enough to handle the entire duty of cooling the water. It's meant as a add-on to supliment the SC's H/E. Anything cooler you add to the system will be an improvement. The main question will be, will it give enough benefit to offset the HP loss from running the AC.



I'm speaking of the H/E in the front of the car.
Never measured the return temp as I can't think of why one would need to. As for the capacity, an automotive AC system stock is enough to cool a average bedroom that is properly insulated. The average car is all metal and glass (turn off your AC on a hot day and in less than a minute it is hot as heck) and takes an immense amount of AC to cool. The cooling of the HE is a drop in the bucket. As a poster above stated, watch the youtube video...it takes less than 2 minutes to drop the intercooler coolant 20 plus degrees, and the hotter the outside air temp, the better the system cools (as much as a 30-40 degree drop!). This is why the inside cabin AC will still work fine along with the chiller.
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:44 AM   #39
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Here is a picture of the chiller on a scale, less than 5.5 lbs. It is made of SS, the rest is all AL so very minimal weight:



Last edited by SC2150; 09-05-2010 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:51 AM   #40
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There is an additional expansion valve at the chiller. And an additional orfice tube. Just think of how a dual AC system works in a van/SUV. You are correct on the backward terminology...and the chiller valve bypasses the heat exchanger up front when activated so the heat exchanger does not reduce the effectivness of the chiller.
Are you saying you add a valve to the water line to bypass the H/E?
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:14 AM   #41
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What is the water temp coming back from the SC? The air coming into the front H/E isn't going to be 120 degrees, unless you're sitting at a stoplight. While the bottom of the H/E may be 12in above the road, it spans up a good deal from there. Your outside ambient temp will be pretty much what the H/E sees. Unless i'm mistaken this setup isn't big enough to handle the entire duty of cooling the water. It's meant as a add-on to supliment the SC's H/E. Anything cooler you add to the system will be an improvement. The main question will be, will it give enough benefit to offset the HP loss from running the AC.
Depending on the boost psi and ambient temp. will determine the water temp coming out of the intercoolers. Most LS motors with tvs systems will only make 7-9 psi so were not talking a lot of heat from the boost. The mustang guys are making 18-24psi using the KC and it is dropping the IAT2's down 30+ degrees. Thats alot!

The heat from the road may not equal 120 but it will be in between 90 and 120, probably around 100. I have never measured it obviously but you can feel the heat coming up from any hot asphaut or concrete. The point is that I am trying to keep my water temp between 50-70 degrees and 100+ blowing across the H/E will only warm it up. The guys on the corvette forum right now running the e-force are seeing 120-140 water temps so if you blow 100 degree across the H/E, even though its hot, its still cooler than 140. Problem is once you reach 130 the car starts to pull timing.

My plan is to move the battery to the trunk and in its place install a 3 gallon insulated tank and insulate all the hoses to and from. Once the a/c is runing for 5 minutes or so it will get the temps down to 50 degrees or so depending on how hot it is. With nearly 4 gallons of chilled water in the entire system it would take a lot to warm it up. You may get on it for 10-15 sec. and when you let off the compressor kicks back on and chills the water again.

The question about the hp loss is only about 6-7 which is minimal, and the compressor will kick off at WOT anyway. Also there is a freon called industrial 12a that is supposed to cool better than 134r and r12, and it is compatable with 134r systems. This will be my winter project so I will post pictures and results when I am finished. Thanks!
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:27 AM   #42
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WOW! I'm learning a lot in this thread. Thanks for all the input everyone! The other product wasn't what I was thinking of exactly (it was Ford that I thought that was actually developing it) but that looks like a cool set-up too. Being this product is going to be purpose built for CAMARO, it has a lot more interest for me.

I'm hoping we'll see some more development information as time goes by. It'd be great to see some results of road testing and cool-down times, and effects of power draw on WOT engine operation, and whatever else anyone else can think of
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:34 AM   #43
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Depending on the boost psi and ambient temp. will determine the water temp coming out of the intercoolers. Most LS motors with tvs systems will only make 7-9 psi so were not talking a lot of heat from the boost. The mustang guys are making 18-24psi using the KC and it is dropping the IAT2's down 30+ degrees. Thats alot!

The heat from the road may not equal 120 but it will be in between 90 and 120, probably around 100. I have never measured it obviously but you can feel the heat coming up from any hot asphaut or concrete. The point is that I am trying to keep my water temp between 50-70 degrees and 100+ blowing across the H/E will only warm it up. The guys on the corvette forum right now running the e-force are seeing 120-140 water temps so if you blow 100 degree across the H/E, even though its hot, its still cooler than 140. Problem is once you reach 130 the car starts to pull timing.

My plan is to move the battery to the trunk and in its place install a 3 gallon insulated tank and insulate all the hoses to and from. Once the a/c is runing for 5 minutes or so it will get the temps down to 50 degrees or so depending on how hot it is. With nearly 4 gallons of chilled water in the entire system it would take a lot to warm it up. You may get on it for 10-15 sec. and when you let off the compressor kicks back on and chills the water again.

The question about the hp loss is only about 6-7 which is minimal, and the compressor will kick off at WOT anyway. Also there is a freon called industrial 12a that is supposed to cool better than 134r and r12, and it is compatable with 134r systems. This will be my winter project so I will post pictures and results when I am finished. Thanks!
Please keep us posted!

I'm still a little concerned with sweat from the system. As I had been reading, and even the post regarding my questions regarding confirming condensation, I'm remembering the accumulator and even lines sweat a lot on hot days around here. I don't necessarily think that adding this product will add to that at all, but at the track, sitting in the staging lanes, if the A/C's running, the high-pressure line (I hope that's right...) is the one pumping the refrigerant into the evaporator and accumulator could develop condensation, no? If I'm off, please feel free to comment. I'm just kinda' thinking out loud and my A/C system knowledge is probably about the least. Thanks for all the answers and help
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:09 AM   #44
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As far as the chiller itself its will sit in the front facia area, or where I want to put it is in the front bumper. The mustang guys actually cut out a section of foam in the front bumper and mount it inside the little pocket they made. As far as the evaporator is concerned I believe most of the condensation hits the headers on a vette (not sure about the camaro). At the strip I would imagine once you do a burn out you would not have much time to put down any water on the track. Maybe track down exactly where the water comes out and force it under the middle of the car?
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:12 AM   #45
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As far as the chiller itself its will sit in the front facia area, or where I want to put it is in the front bumper. The mustang guys actually cut out a section of foam in the front bumper and mount it inside the little pocket they made. As far as the evaporator is concerned I believe most of the condensation hits the headers on a vette (not sure about the camaro). At the strip I would imagine once you do a burn out you would not have much time to put down any water on the track. Maybe track down exactly where the water comes out and force it under the middle of the car?
Hmm... Yeah - I can't visualize where all that stuff is on Camaro. Definately something to consider. I know I never used the A/C at the track, even on the hotest days, while I was in the staging lanes and burnout box. It could be I'm worrying about nothing
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:52 PM   #46
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Quote:
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Are you saying you add a valve to the water line to bypass the H/E?
The valve on the left is it:



Quote:
Originally Posted by vertc6 View Post
As far as the chiller itself its will sit in the front facia area, or where I want to put it is in the front bumper. The mustang guys actually cut out a section of foam in the front bumper and mount it inside the little pocket they made. As far as the evaporator is concerned I believe most of the condensation hits the headers on a vette (not sure about the camaro). At the strip I would imagine once you do a burn out you would not have much time to put down any water on the track. Maybe track down exactly where the water comes out and force it under the middle of the car?
You should not run the cabin AC in the staging lanes as it will spill some condensation out when you launch....and any fluid on the track is extremely dangerous. The chiller only sweats a small amount.....barely a few drops.

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Hmm... Yeah - I can't visualize where all that stuff is on Camaro. Definately something to consider. I know I never used the A/C at the track, even on the hotest days, while I was in the staging lanes and burnout box. It could be I'm worrying about nothing
If in doubt, some cloth could be wrapped around the insulated chiller itself to catch any drips, but it really is not an issue. Now the cabin AC will dump a ton because it is the moisture removed from the cabin air. The chiller removes no moisture from anywhere, and the tubes running to it are wrapped where condesation would occur.

I expect to have more progress this weekend and will post more pics.

Last edited by SC2150; 09-05-2010 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:04 PM   #47
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That is really cool, so you will be able to bypass the heat exchanger with that valve and on the other end you can bypass the freon from going into the cabin's evaporator, is that correct?
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:10 PM   #48
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vertc6 - I am very sorry, however, but posting a competing product in a Sponsor's thread is not a good idea. As much as I believe those video are cool, I respectfully ask you to either allow other members to contact you for information or, perhaps, open a thread with the infomation. Again, were it not for this being a Sponsor's thread, I wouldn't even care. Thank you again for all your valuable information and I hope this doesn't keep you from adding your knowledge to the discussion.

With all due respect,
Chuck
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:12 PM   #49
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The valve on the left is it:





You should not run the cabin AC in the staging lanes as it will spill some condensation out when you launch....and any fluid on the track is extremely dangerous. The chiller only sweats a small amount.....barely a few drops.



If in doubt, some cloth could be wrapped around the insulated chiller itself to catch any drips, but it really is not an issue. Now the cabin AC will dump a ton because it is the moisture removed from the cabin air. The chiller removes no moisture from anywhere, and the tubes running to it are wrapped where condesation would occur.

I expect to have more progress this weekend and will post more pics.
SWEET! Thank you very much for answering my questions. PLEASE - keep us posted
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:31 PM   #50
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No problem
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