Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
BORLA
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-11-2010, 07:59 PM   #29
vertc6
 
Drives: vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
No. It integrates with it and cools the intercooler coolant. On the average intercooler you have the intercooler in the grill, and the coolant in that system circulates to the heat exchanger under the supercharger. This takes that coolant and chills it down drastically from what the ambient air can.

There is no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer. So ask anything you need to understand it all.
Not trying to knit pick at all I just don't want anyone to get confused, the heat exchanger is in the grill and the intercoolers are below the supercharger.
vertc6 is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:05 PM   #30
vertc6
 
Drives: vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
If you ran the chiller AFTER the heat exchanger, you get the best of both worlds.
I thought the same thing too at first, but think about it this way, lets say it is 90 degrees out and the road temp on a sunny day is easily 120. Your H/E is 12" above the road and pulling in that heat into the H/E, all the while I am trying to keep the water temp at 50 degrees! If you introduce that chilled water from a closed system back into the H/E you will actually warm the water up.
vertc6 is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:12 PM   #31
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
You mentioned no condensation to drip onto the track. There is no condensation from the chiller's interface between the coolant and refrigerent then?



Are or will you guys be verifying this?

Thanks for all the details
Correct the condesation drip from the cabin is the moisture removed from the cabin air as it is recirculated. The chiller outside does not produce any more moisture than the standard AC line does under the hood.

Yes, it has been verified by some of the guys running the KC units. The KC unit works awesome as well, but is basically off the shelf auto AC parts, where this is all purpose built. Billet adaptors, etc. As most things I produce it is ground up designed for the intended purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vertc6 View Post
You have, its called the killer chiller. I have been talking to the owner Joe for the last few months for developing one for GM cars. I believe one of the GTO guys did one this year. The Ford guys have been using it with great success, as low as 45 degree water temps with the outside temp around 75. You can see some videos on youtube, awesome results! When I install my Eforce this winter it will be the first thing I put on, and believe it or not if you run a H/E it actually counteracts the KC because it will warm up the water on a hot day. I am going to run a 3 gallon insulated tank straight to the KC and insulate the lines to keep it as cool as possible.

I am very currious to see how your chiller performs, I like the idea of the shut off to the evap and just freon to the chiller. The only negative I see is that the unit is not insulated like the KC is, do you plan to insulate it?
Your 3 gal tank is an excellent idea, and you are correct on the reverse effect in very cold conditions. Remeber, and AC system removes heat, it does not generate cold. Yes, the chiller is well insulated and is enclosed in a aluminum protective shell to give uniform support and strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
If you ran the chiller AFTER the heat exchanger, you get the best of both worlds.
Except the heat exchanger is underneath the super charger so that would be an entire engineering issue.
SC2150 is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:34 PM   #32
vertc6
 
Drives: vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 41
You have it backwards, on a air to air the intercooler is up front. On an air to water the heat exchanger is up front and the intercoolers are below the SC.

Pictures

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...2FIMG_4873.jpg

Here is a picture of the intercoolers on the LS9

http://image.popularhotrodding.com/f...ntercooler.jpg

Last edited by vertc6; 08-11-2010 at 08:47 PM.
vertc6 is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:38 PM   #33
vertc6
 
Drives: vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 41
One other question, on the vette it has an expansion valve on the fire wall and not an orphice tube. How will you route the system in that regards. Thanks for the help!
vertc6 is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 08:58 PM   #34
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by vertc6 View Post
One other question, on the vette it has an expansion valve on the fire wall and not an orphice tube. How will you route the system in that regards. Thanks for the help!

There is an additional expansion valve at the chiller. And an additional orfice tube. Just think of how a dual AC system works in a van/SUV. You are correct on the backward terminology...and the chiller valve bypasses the heat exchanger up front when activated so the heat exchanger does not reduce the effectivness of the chiller.
SC2150 is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 09:37 PM   #35
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 3,364
How much weight would a system like this add to the car? Where is the planned mounting location?
__________________
Kyle2k is offline  
Old 08-11-2010, 09:47 PM   #36
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 1LE...Drove: 2012 ZL1
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 28,106
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
I've often thought of cooling the charge with the air conditioner...this is incredible!!

I can't wait to see it in action on a Camaro!

Since you're adding more plumbing (and therefore volume) to the A/C system, though -- will it require a addition of some refrigerant to "fill up" the system?
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Twice Before You Post.
...Anxiously waiting to order a silver "Z"...

Mr. Wyndham is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 01:04 AM   #37
axis
Search Ninja
 
axis's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Ark
Posts: 7,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by vertc6 View Post
I thought the same thing too at first, but think about it this way, lets say it is 90 degrees out and the road temp on a sunny day is easily 120. Your H/E is 12" above the road and pulling in that heat into the H/E, all the while I am trying to keep the water temp at 50 degrees! If you introduce that chilled water from a closed system back into the H/E you will actually warm the water up.
What is the water temp coming back from the SC? The air coming into the front H/E isn't going to be 120 degrees, unless you're sitting at a stoplight. While the bottom of the H/E may be 12in above the road, it spans up a good deal from there. Your outside ambient temp will be pretty much what the H/E sees. Unless i'm mistaken this setup isn't big enough to handle the entire duty of cooling the water. It's meant as a add-on to supliment the SC's H/E. Anything cooler you add to the system will be an improvement. The main question will be, will it give enough benefit to offset the HP loss from running the AC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
Except the heat exchanger is underneath the super charger so that would be an entire engineering issue.
I'm speaking of the H/E in the front of the car.
__________________
2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Halltech CF 102 fed
GPI modded intake manifold
Bo (knows) White ported TB
Kooks LT's/ Dynomax VT
Pfadted (springs/sways)
Dyno tuned by Rhino and GPI

I once parallel parked a train.
axis is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 07:19 AM   #38
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
How much weight would a system like this add to the car? Where is the planned mounting location?
Entire system adds about 9 lbs. It mounts behind the bumper cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I've often thought of cooling the charge with the air conditioner...this is incredible!!

I can't wait to see it in action on a Camaro!

Since you're adding more plumbing (and therefore volume) to the A/C system, though -- will it require a addition of some refrigerant to "fill up" the system?

Yes, it takes more 134a as the OEM system volume is increased.


Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
What is the water temp coming back from the SC? The air coming into the front H/E isn't going to be 120 degrees, unless you're sitting at a stoplight. While the bottom of the H/E may be 12in above the road, it spans up a good deal from there. Your outside ambient temp will be pretty much what the H/E sees. Unless i'm mistaken this setup isn't big enough to handle the entire duty of cooling the water. It's meant as a add-on to supliment the SC's H/E. Anything cooler you add to the system will be an improvement. The main question will be, will it give enough benefit to offset the HP loss from running the AC.



I'm speaking of the H/E in the front of the car.
Never measured the return temp as I can't think of why one would need to. As for the capacity, an automotive AC system stock is enough to cool a average bedroom that is properly insulated. The average car is all metal and glass (turn off your AC on a hot day and in less than a minute it is hot as heck) and takes an immense amount of AC to cool. The cooling of the HE is a drop in the bucket. As a poster above stated, watch the youtube video...it takes less than 2 minutes to drop the intercooler coolant 20 plus degrees, and the hotter the outside air temp, the better the system cools (as much as a 30-40 degree drop!). This is why the inside cabin AC will still work fine along with the chiller.
SC2150 is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:44 AM   #39
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,069
Here is a picture of the chiller on a scale, less than 5.5 lbs. It is made of SS, the rest is all AL so very minimal weight:



Last edited by SC2150; 09-05-2010 at 04:38 PM.
SC2150 is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:51 AM   #40
vertc6
 
Drives: vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
There is an additional expansion valve at the chiller. And an additional orfice tube. Just think of how a dual AC system works in a van/SUV. You are correct on the backward terminology...and the chiller valve bypasses the heat exchanger up front when activated so the heat exchanger does not reduce the effectivness of the chiller.
Are you saying you add a valve to the water line to bypass the H/E?
vertc6 is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:14 AM   #41
vertc6
 
Drives: vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
What is the water temp coming back from the SC? The air coming into the front H/E isn't going to be 120 degrees, unless you're sitting at a stoplight. While the bottom of the H/E may be 12in above the road, it spans up a good deal from there. Your outside ambient temp will be pretty much what the H/E sees. Unless i'm mistaken this setup isn't big enough to handle the entire duty of cooling the water. It's meant as a add-on to supliment the SC's H/E. Anything cooler you add to the system will be an improvement. The main question will be, will it give enough benefit to offset the HP loss from running the AC.
Depending on the boost psi and ambient temp. will determine the water temp coming out of the intercoolers. Most LS motors with tvs systems will only make 7-9 psi so were not talking a lot of heat from the boost. The mustang guys are making 18-24psi using the KC and it is dropping the IAT2's down 30+ degrees. Thats alot!

The heat from the road may not equal 120 but it will be in between 90 and 120, probably around 100. I have never measured it obviously but you can feel the heat coming up from any hot asphaut or concrete. The point is that I am trying to keep my water temp between 50-70 degrees and 100+ blowing across the H/E will only warm it up. The guys on the corvette forum right now running the e-force are seeing 120-140 water temps so if you blow 100 degree across the H/E, even though its hot, its still cooler than 140. Problem is once you reach 130 the car starts to pull timing.

My plan is to move the battery to the trunk and in its place install a 3 gallon insulated tank and insulate all the hoses to and from. Once the a/c is runing for 5 minutes or so it will get the temps down to 50 degrees or so depending on how hot it is. With nearly 4 gallons of chilled water in the entire system it would take a lot to warm it up. You may get on it for 10-15 sec. and when you let off the compressor kicks back on and chills the water again.

The question about the hp loss is only about 6-7 which is minimal, and the compressor will kick off at WOT anyway. Also there is a freon called industrial 12a that is supposed to cool better than 134r and r12, and it is compatable with 134r systems. This will be my winter project so I will post pictures and results when I am finished. Thanks!
vertc6 is offline  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:27 AM   #42
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,061
WOW! I'm learning a lot in this thread. Thanks for all the input everyone! The other product wasn't what I was thinking of exactly (it was Ford that I thought that was actually developing it) but that looks like a cool set-up too. Being this product is going to be purpose built for CAMARO, it has a lot more interest for me.

I'm hoping we'll see some more development information as time goes by. It'd be great to see some results of road testing and cool-down times, and effects of power draw on WOT engine operation, and whatever else anyone else can think of
__________________
05 Hummer H2 SUV on OEM Air Ride
Forged 11.4:1 408 LQ4 (K1 crank & rods; Mahle pistons)/CPP LS3 CNC heads/BTR Stage IV LS3 cam/home ported L92 intake manifold/ported 90mm TB/custom Volant CAI/mid-length headers/AFE dual 3" CB/Corvette Servo/el cheapo lift/Cognito UCAs/Sphon poly adjustable TA/Sphon adjustable rear LCAs/e'fan conversion/DirtyMax radiator/Moroso catchcan/HPTuners/HID conversion/LED exterior lighting/LED interior accents/Autometer Cobalts/AEM WBPioneer AVH-5600BHS/Pioneer GM-9601/2-Pioneer TS-W310D4s/Obcon Labyrinth dual-12 box/lots of other little stuff
radz28 is offline  
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DIY : Install Lowering Springs on 2010 Camaro Nine Ball Camaro DIY & HOW-TO instructions & discussions 41 11-19-2015 08:57 AM
Pfadt Race Engineering Lowering Springs Improve Looks And Performance. Apex Motorsports Suspension / Chassis / Brakes 341 02-02-2014 11:52 AM
Special Pfadt lowering spring offer! Limited time SALE, Photos included! IPS Brandon Suspension / Chassis / Brakes 30 10-20-2010 10:24 AM
Eibach Lowering Springs & Sway Bars @ Phastek Performance Jason@Phastek Performance Suspension / Chassis / Brakes 0 01-29-2010 03:56 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.