CAMARO6 - Camaro ZL1 1LE Spied Sans Wing, With Carbon Ceramic Brakes

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- - Camaro ZL1 1LE Spied Sans Wing, With Carbon Ceramic Brakes (https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=518063)

camaro5

01-09-2018 11:53 PM

Camaro ZL1 1LE Spied Sans Wing, With Carbon Ceramic Brakes

Quote:

At the very least, we’re looking at General Motors validating carbon-ceramic brakes for the Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE. At most, this could be some sort of Camaro Z/28 test mule.

Photos of the prototype car, posted to Facebook page V.I.S.I.T. on Monday, show a manufacturer-plated Camaro ZL1 1LE without the massive rear wing, but with large carbon-ceramic brakes hiding behind the wheels. The ZL1 1LE does not feature carbon brakes and retains iron rotors for a variety of reasons.

If this is some kind of sixth-generation Camaro Z/28 prototype, it begs the question of what resides under the hood. The previous-generation Camaro Z/28 skipped forced induction for the massive 7.0-liter LS7 V8 engine. News on the sixth-generation Z/28 has been near zilch, but a March 2017 report claimed GM is working on a 5.5-liter LT6 V8 engine for such a car. This engine is reportedly a DOHC design with a flat-plane crankshaft and will be closely related to a forthcoming LT7 V8 engine, which could find a home in the ever-unconfirmed mid-engine C8 Corvette.

Flash forward to present day, and those rumors seem slightly corroborated. CAD drawings revealed a twin-turbo LT7 V8 engine last month, and a report from last November named three engine options for the upcoming C8 Corvette. One of those engines? A 5.5-liter DOHC V8.

Also off the shelf is the 6.2L LT5 V8 powering the ferocious 2019 Corvette ZR1. The dual-injected pushrod V8 boasts a larger supercharger than the LT4 engine found in the Camaro ZL1 and Corvette Z06, and produces a staggering 755 horsepower. It might not be naturally aspirated, as has been Z/28 tradition, but such an engine finding its way to the Camaro family would surely be the crown jewel of a top-of-the-line model.

All of this is to say we may just be looking at an upcoming carbon ceramic brake package for a supposed 2019 Camaro ZL1 1LE, and not a Z/28, in this instance. But, Chevy has surprised us before.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-conte...-brakes-01.jpg http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-conte...-brakes-03.jpg http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-conte...02-720x340.jpg

FringBirdAloha

01-10-2018 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camaro5 (Post 10037079)

http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-conte...-brakes-01.jpg http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-conte...-brakes-03.jpg

If it is a Z28, it’s not going to be naturally aspirated. There’s no doubt there are mules running around with LT5’s in them. But develop a new DOHC NA for the Camaro?... nope. Plus any release of an LT5 based Camaro would be at least a year after the ZR1. But we can be sure it’s in the plans.

I think there may have been some fallout over not offering CC brakes and they may be implementing a brakes package.

JamesNoBrakes

01-10-2018 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FringBirdAloha (Post 10037215)

i agree, the amount of engine technology and refinement to make a meaningful gain over the 7.0L and keep it NA would be impractical. You aren't going to get up 650hp at a lower weight without going to extreme measures that would require materials and tooling that would be out of reach. Think lamborghini or ferrari NA engine. Ferrari 812 gets 788hp, but requires 12 cylinders to do so, just the maintenance on that kind of engine is staggering for most people, let alone the cost of it.

Mr. Wyndham

01-10-2018 08:59 AM

I'm real curious...a little Devil's Advocate work, here:

- Some racing series do not allow CCM disks.

- Most racers (esp. Porsche) ditch their Carbon brakes for iron replacements for track days due to wear and price.

- They cost a ridiculous amount of money to replace...and they're brittle while servicing.

- Different compound, more aggressive racing pads are more readily available for iron brakes.

- The '14 Z/28 (with CCM brakes), at 3858 lbs, stopped from 60-0mph in 97 ft.

- The '18 ZL1 1LE (with same-sized iron brakes), at 3837, stopped from 60-0mph in 91 ft.

GM/Al have said they didn't see a benefit to using the CCM brakes in either fade resistance or braking distances, so they couldn't justify the cost in utilizing them on the car.

So why do we consider these brakes worth anything other than a party piece? :iono:

Fast Dalmation

01-10-2018 09:41 AM

Nicely Said!

Also unless they are heated up, they will not perform correctly and make tons of noise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 10037310)

I'm real curious...a little Devil's Advocate work, here:

- Few, if any racing series allow CCM disks.

- Most racers (esp. Porsche) ditch their Carbon brakes for iron replacements for track days due to wear and price.

- They cost a ridiculous amount of money to replace...and they're brittle while servicing.

- Different compound, more aggressive racing pads are more readily available for iron brakes.

- The '14 Z/28 (with CCM brakes), at 3858 lbs, stopped from 60-0mph in 97 ft.

- The '18 ZL1 1LE (with same-sized iron brakes), at 3837, stopped from 60-0mph in 91 ft.

GM/Al have said they didn't see a benefit to using the CCM brakes in either fade resistance or braking distances on the Camaro, so they couldn't justify the cost in utilizing them on the car.

So why do we consider these brakes worth anything other than a party piece? :iono:

ninetres

01-10-2018 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 10037310)

I'm real curious...a little Devil's Advocate work, here:

- Few, if any racing series allow CCM disks.

- Most racers (esp. Porsche) ditch their Carbon brakes for iron replacements.

- They cost a ridiculous amount of money to replace...and they're brittle while servicing.

- Different compound, more aggressive racing pads are more readily available for iron brakes.

- The '14 Z/28 (with CCM brakes), at 3858 lbs, stopped from 60-0mph in 97 ft.

- The '18 ZL1 1LE (with same-sized iron brakes), at 3837, stopped from 60-0mph in 91 ft.

GM/Al have said they didn't see a benefit to using the CCM brakes in either fade resistance or braking distances, so they couldn't justify the cost in utilizing them on the car.

So why do we consider these brakes worth anything other than a party piece? :iono:

I agree with most of this (although I know many series that allow them). I also know sooooo many people that immediately remove them, and run iron until they sell the car to avoid ever having to replace them. What a waste of time and money for something you keep on a shelf in the garage!

A ZL1 1LE level Camaro, plus CCB, plus whatever other upgrades it will include will cost what....$85k? $95k? Eek.

Mr. Wyndham

01-10-2018 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninetres (Post 10037367)

I stand corrected - and will edit the post! :)

I knew a few didn't allow them, and since I don't know all, I sort of extrapolated.

A dug up a couple of other references that are pertinent, too...

Written in 2014 or '15
http://www.motortrend.com/news/20-be...nces-recorded/

2015 Z06/Z07 (with CCM brakes), at 3533lbs, stopped from 60-0 in....91 feet!!!

...exactly the same as the much heavier ZL1 1LE....just sayin'....

travislambert

01-10-2018 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 10037310)

- Most racers (esp. Porsche) ditch their Carbon brakes for iron replacements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 10037310)

- They cost a ridiculous amount of money to replace...

When I looked into this a few months ago, I was using the 5th Gen CCMs for reference and the cost didn't seem too bad to me. I think the CCM front rotors could be bought for a little over $1,000 each and a set of factory pads were around $800. That's still a lot of money, but it's cheap as far as carbon brakes go. Also, it's comparable to what track guys spend on tires.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 10037310)

2015 Z06/Z07 (with CCM brakes), at 3533lbs, stopped from 60-0 in....91 feet!!!

...exactly the same as the much heavier ZL1 1LE....just sayin'....

That's a fair point. I didn't look into the details of this test, but I would think as the brake temperature increases the CCM brakes would get slightly better and the iron brakes would be slightly worse.

Was iron the right choice for the ZL1? I don't think there's any question. For most people iron makes way more sense. With that said, I am very excited to see that CCMs might be coming our way as an option! As long as the price isn't crazy, I want to try them.

ninetres

01-10-2018 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travislambert (Post 10037381)

I'm not sure this completely true, is it?... Some do for sure, but I don't know about "most".

These guys aren't technically "racers", but a Porsche group runs every month during the summer at PittRace. Several are pretty hardcore guys with $500,000+ invested in their cars. On multiple occasions I've ran my ZL1 with them (because they usually don't have enough Porsches to justify the track rental). I don't recall a single person who has swapped their carbon brakes for iron. They pretty much all are running carbon ceramics.

With that said, I've seen many Viper ACR owners go back to iron brakes. If you talk to them, their reasoning is almost always cost.

When I looked into this a few months ago, I was using the 5th Gen CCMs for reference and the cost didn't seem too bad to me. I think the CCM front rotors could be bought for a little over $1,000 each and a set of factory pads were around $800. That's still a lot of money, but it's cheap as far as carbon brakes go. Also, it's comparable to what track guys spend on tires.

For me, I think the weight savings seems interesting. For all four corners it should be 50lbs+ of total rotating weight savings. There is no way that doesn't equate to some performance benefit. I know what Al has said, but I can also see what all of the exotics come from the factory with... and also what's pictured in this thread.

Was iron the right choice for the ZL1? I don't think there's any question. For most people iron makes way more sense. With that said, I am very excited to see that CCMs might be coming our way as an option! As long as the price isn't crazy, I want to try them.

$1800 tires per Corner? Huh? What sort of unicorn hide tires do people you know run? Hoosiers can be had for <$500/corner.

closs2sx

01-10-2018 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninetres (Post 10037386)

$1800 tires per Corner? Huh? What sort of unicorn hide tires do people you know run? Hoosiers can be had for <$500/corner.

he's talking about the ceramic rotors and pads for each corner and if you factor in how many sets of tires you go through before you change pads and rotors it would be close

travislambert

01-10-2018 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninetres (Post 10037386)

$1800 tires per Corner? Huh? What sort of unicorn hide tires do people you know run? Hoosiers can be had for <$500/corner.

Surely you wouldn't do a full rotor and pad replacement with each set of tires, right? The brakes pads should at least last through a couple sets of tires. And the rotors will last through a few sets of brake pads as long as you change the pads early enough.

Given that factory tires are roughly $1,400 a set. The overall maintenance cost of the brakes should at least be comparable to the overall cost of tires.

That's all I meant.

Mountain

01-10-2018 10:34 AM

It would make sense to create a Z/28, mainly based on the fact of a 5.5L coming. Why? The Cadillac DPi’s just switched to a 5.5L (hmmm...). The next Corvette will have a 5.5L (hmm...). The GTLM/GTE Corvettes run 5.5L’s (#muchdata #proven). With that, it makes sense to homologate to the GT4 Camaro, which opens up a business case for the option to create a Z/28 road car. Right now, the GT4 engine is a GM Performance/GM Racing frankenstein. Cost, complexity, durability and marketing wise, it’s a better move to go with the Corvette C8 5.5L.

Take a ZL1 1LE, remove the LT4 and shove in a 5.5L DOHC, or even HOHV, you reduce weight. Remove the rear seats, strip down the creature comforts...

With a 5.5L, you get a more stabil engine for high RPM. You can still get the power performance needed through a shift in the RPM band. Also, a 5.0+L V8 is still large enough to get good mid-range torque. A 5.5L also helps in pro racing because a 5.5L restricted is more efficient and stabil than a 6.2L (BOP - heat management/combustion efficiency) and fuel economy is better. So, a 5.5L also makes sense for the race cars.

URBAN LEGEND

01-10-2018 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham (Post 10037310)

I'm real curious...a little Devil's Advocate work, here:

- Few, if any racing series allow CCM disks.

- Most racers (esp. Porsche) ditch their Carbon brakes for iron replacements for track days due to wear and price.

- They cost a ridiculous amount of money to replace...and they're brittle while servicing.

- Different compound, more aggressive racing pads are more readily available for iron brakes.

- The '14 Z/28 (with CCM brakes), at 3858 lbs, stopped from 60-0mph in 97 ft.

- The '18 ZL1 1LE (with same-sized iron brakes), at 3837, stopped from 60-0mph in 91 ft.

GM/Al have said they didn't see a benefit to using the CCM brakes in either fade resistance or braking distances, so they couldn't justify the cost in utilizing them on the car.

So why do we consider these brakes worth anything other than a party piece? :iono:

Hmm. Yet Vettes can have them... GM better put these damn brakes on this 🚘.

closs2sx

01-10-2018 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travislambert (Post 10037395)

i was picking up what you were throwing down

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