Originally Posted by chuckstacamaro
Hey LOWDOWN
Originally Posted by chuckstacamaroand as updated by LOWDOWN (as you are NOT 100% Correct either)
To put it straight the Camaro, (even old school Camaro's) were not considered Muscle Cars by definition. They were Pony cars.
Most American car manufacturers in the 60's and 70's had both Muscle Cars and Pony Cars. Chevy had its Camaro, Pontiac Firebird/Trans Am, Ford Mustang, Mercury Cougar, Plymouth Barracuda, Dodge Challenger, and AMC Javelin/AMX. AMX, '68-'70, were Sports cars, '71-'74 were Pony Cars. AMC DID have the "Machine" which certainly is a valid Muscle Car...(Yes and no argument here about the Machine) Gosh, thanks!
However, a true Muscle car was an intermediate sized two door automobile with a full size car motor (Big Block). The 1964 GTO was the first true muscle car (well debatable with the 1957 Chyrsler 300, First Hemi for you Mopar guys, or more properly the '62-'63 Max Wedges in Dodge/Plymouth intermediates (And yes, but the Max Wedge cars were not massed produced or available to the general public), WHICH IS WHAT I STATE, BELOW...AGAIN, READ EVERYTHING 1ST as Pontiac took the 389 from the full sized Bonneville, with 3x2 Carbs, dual exhaust, 4 speed and installed it into the 64 Tempest/Lemans (intermediate car). Pontiac took everyone by surprise. Now it was catch up time for everyone else in late 64 and early 65.
Chevy in 1965 took the Corvette 396CID/375HP (rated 425HP in the Vette) motor and put into the Chevelle and the Chevelle 396SS was born. Chevy (also in 1965), installed the Corvette 427/425HP (NOT available till '66 MY,) GM as with most car manufactures in the 60’s and 70’s, presented ringers (those are cars with factory raced tuned and prepped cars), to Motor Trend/Car and Driver/Road and Track for Car Testing. SO BECAUSE YOU "THINK" SOME 427 MALIBU "RINGERS" WERE BUILT, THEY QUALIFY AS "PRODUCTION"? READ NHRA'S RULE BOOK and see if a '65 427 Malibu (or any other year before '69) is raceable in STOCK Eliminator...believe me, if Chev built 'em, they'd qualify, but they DIDN'T, so they DON'T... in a select few Chevelle SS's that were coded the Z11. (opps! my mistake NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE the Z11 was the 427/425hp version of the famous 409 W-Head engine which were installed in the impalas. They also installed 409’s in very few 1965 Bel Air’s and Impalas and Wagons and....but NONE were called "Z11s" Which is a highly sorted sought-after ? collectible today but with only 340hp, not exactly a "Super car" as you would have us erroneously believe... Actually, Z11 was the LPO code for race-intended '63 Impalas-approx. 50 or so, with more built over-the-counter. Z16 was the '65 Malibu SS396 option with 396/375 rating...200-odd built. NO 427 Chevelles left GM assembly plants until '69, and then only as COPOs, which when protested by the "other" Divisions led to the '70 454/455 options throughout GM...(yes, correct again) Gosh, I see a pattern, forming...
Oldsmobile in late (spring-'64) 1964/early 1965 took its 400 (Actually 394CID) from the Dynamic 88 full size car line and installed it into the F-85 Cutlass calling it the 442 (442 = 4bbl, 4spdl, dual exhaust).
Buick in 1965 took the 400 (actually 401, thus technically violating GM's "400-max." rule) CID from the Buick Riviera and installed it in its Skylark (intermediate) and called it the Skylark GS (Grand [actually GRAN] Sport). Eventually GM upped the ante on all its model car lines with engines getting bigger and bigger and more powerful each year from 1965 through 1970 (396, 400, 425, 427,454 and 455CID engines depending on car manufactuer mnake and model). GM restricted all Divisions to 400 c.i., until '70 MY...Hurst Olds '68-'69 excepted, as they were NOT GM-assembled(WRONG! GM only restricted the 400 in, ”Mid-Sized” cars until 1970 WHICH IS WHAT I JUST SAID AS PER THIS PARAGRAPH, HURST & COPO EXCEPTED...READ CAREFULLY . The Chevelle, GTO, Gran Sport, and 442’s were INTERMEDIATE CARS. The Pontiac GTO came Standard with the 400 in 1967 and offered a 400 in the 1968 Firebird) Also the Olds 442 came standard with a 400 beginning in 1967 and the 400 was not limited only to the Hurst Olds)
The Dodge/Plymouth Muscle Cars were the (Charger, Fury, Super Bee, GTX, Road Runner and Belvedere with 383, 440 or 426 Hemi Power). They really started it, in '62, with their Max Wedge program...the GTO was the first "volume" version, exceeding even Delorean/Wangers "predictions"... There it is...
So did Ford/Mercury (Fairlanes, Cyclones, Torinos with 427/428/429 to eventually 460 CID Big blocks).
And even the now defunct American Motors Corporation (AMC) had their Rebel Machine and Rambler from 1967 through 1970 with 390 and 401 CID Motors installed in their intermediate cars.
The Full sized cars in the 1960's through 1970 with factory modified big blocks were known as Super Cars. "Super Cars" was a designation really first used to describe European exotics/hybrids, including the original Cobra. Yenko/Nickey/Motion and others "borrowed" the term...(Wrong again LOWDOWN, Super Cars was the moniker used on Full Sized American Cars that came with the Biggest and most powerful V8's available on Race Inspired Full Sized Cars in the 60's) ... DO YOU REALLY THINK A 225 WOULD "RACE-INSPIRE" ANYTHING? NOT EVEN "FLINT FANATICS" DO...and I OWN A Stage 1... "SUPER CARS" were EXOTICS, 1ST..."SUPER" Price, "SUPER" Performance, "SUPER" Rare, "SUPER CARS"! Full sized cars were the Impala, Belaire, Caprice, Riviera, Wildcat, Electra 225, Polara, Fury, Catalina, Grand Prix, Bonneville, Maurader, LTD, Galaxie 500, Delta 88, and Toronado. Executive and/or Personal Luxury Cars, maybe...the ONLY thing missing in their nomenclature was the prefix "U.S.S.", regardless of engine...
There were also mid-sized cars that were known neither as Pony Car or Muscle Car but they were quick and fast. Some of these were the 340/383 Dodge Dart/Demons and 340/383 Plymouth Swingers/Dusters, Chevy II's/Nova SS with 327/350 or 396 power, the Ford Falcons/Mercury Comets 289/302 and the AMC S/C Rambler 390.
The 60's and early 70's was the era for totally awesome American cars. I'm just glad to have been there when those classics were new, and was able to buy them as used cars when I got out of High school.
Now if you want to talk about the birth of the Modern Day Muscle car well that era would have begun in the mid 1980's, but that is another story for another time.
Don't know where you got your info from, but Wikipedia does not have always the correct Information, I grew up in the 60's Era, drove in a lot of the classics and saw /touched them when you could buy them new from the dealer. And I still have a lot of my old car magazines from when the CLASSICS were being featured and evaluated when they were new.
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