[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

Camarosspike, you read the first comment and didn't really give a valid responds. you are right about what you said,BUT you asked me to say why GM "loves" the global parts and global assembling idea. the answer always comes to money, and GM like any other business loves to save money and make money. again they love other countries because its cheaper.. do you agree? its really nothing against GM every american car maker does it. but still the fact remains.

Sorry I didn't address your comments completely.
I agree everyone loves cheaper stuff. Money makes the world go round. My comments were more towards the "buy american over anything else" comments.

The LS3 and L99's are built in St Catherines, Ontario. The tremec is built in Mexico and the car itself is assembled in Canada. How many parts are already made in china because they are "cheap, low quality pieces"?

I support buying american before outsourcing. But considering how much of the car is already produced overseas, one more part doesnt bother me. That being said, thats my opinion. I'm a bang for the buck guy. I'll most likely buy a set of used kooks or ARH headers when the time comes, but it goes back to the comment about pacesetter headers with 4th gens and their price difference.


second comment, i guess i should say they don't get sued enough to really make a impact in what they do. if price was such a issue with headers like gas is then why dont people sue kooks and ARH for price gouging ? because there is a certain percentage where companies want to make profit and still have it affordable to people. sure there are people who cant afford the price, same thing with Ipods, so thats why they get the song MP3 player. kooks has to pay taxes, american government regulations, insurance, testing, etc and still wants make that profit. OBX does not have this. simple as that. my point is that kooks headers is a "luxury" item. its not made to be afford to everyone. a 300 dollar laptop is made to be afford, not a 2500 mac book pro.

I agree with you about them not getting sued enough.
I know at the end of the day, the companies need to make a profit. (and I dont care for ipods or i-anything for that matter...too much of a blind zombie mass effect. not saying the technology isn't great, just that its not for me).

but lets be honest, look at how many people are running kooks and ARH headers. so the price isn't that bad is it ? look at how much cam kits cost. about the same. they run about the same value.

I agree wholeheartedly at the numbers. but the other side of that argument is that of the options available (excluding OBX), kooks is one of the lower priced arrangements.

And there are dozens (probably hundreds) of threads on here asking "what headers are the best". Most everyone supports what they have and there will always be people who "follow the leader". I've seen it happen hundreds of times on here. Thats one of the good (and sometimes bad) things about forums.
there will always be a couple issues with any product (100% reliablity/quality is unattainable), but by and by, just think about how many lurkers/guests view this site just to see what other people are putting on their cars.

and cam kits... we'll discuss that later...lol

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Well..I guess this proves..even if I stay out a thread..the subject still causes an argument.

At the end of the day this is pretty simple. If you don't want to spend money on American made headers, and lowest price is the biggest factor in your header decison, then yes you have options, including overseas copies. It's your money, do what you want and have fun modding your car. I am not here to hurt anyone's feelings, make them feel bad about what they bought, or whatever. However everything with this is not happy unicorns jumping over rainbows. The reason they are cheap is they took another companies design, and copied it using inferior materials and workmanship overseas. No matter how cheap they are, that fact is unavoidable and the 800lbs gorilla in every one of these threads.

So with that in mind...

A.) Don't expect to go parading around the forums about how great they are, and how you saved so much money and not expect a response. The people who already have a set, or are only gonna spend $500 willl agree with you, and cheer you on for thumbing your nose at the chinese header haters. However there are also a lot of people pay good money for a premium product, and do not take kindly to having people brag about how great a cheap knock off is. This is not limited to headers, pretty much every retail market I know on, it is frowned upon to support knockoffs or brag about purchasing them. It's like going an a sunglass forum and bragging about your fake Oakley's.

B.) In terms of build quality, they are not the same as the premium headers they copies..or even in the ball park. We are talking exhaust pipe here..so it is pretty easy for the stuff to be functional and do the job...but that does not mean the quality is there. It's easy to see shiny headers and think "OMGZ..pretty!", but if you know what you are looking at..there is a big difference.

I will be at Camaro5 fest and have both brands on display. I had both at Camaro5fest last year, and will this year too..and lets say after seeing both..no one was asking me about how to get the cheaper set.

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Lastly, there is no "Camaro Tax". Maybe we want to have an ego trip and think that somehow the Camaro is such a hot market that vendors can charge whatever they want and the poor customer gets screwed. The reality is, this is the most competitive market in the aftermarket right now. There are competitors crawling all over one another to get business. Additionally, with most of this happening online, most customers don't care as much about service, and often let whoever has the absolute lowest price dictate who they buy from. If you are a customer, you have a lot more pricing leverage owning a Camaro, which is made in pretty high numbers than say...a SSR, Challenger, or LT1 Camaro where there are many less options parts wise, and fewer vendors fighting for your business.

There are 5 premium header companies out there, and pretty much all of their pricing is within $300 of one another. These are VERY competitive companies, and if one could undercut the other by $400 and run a profitable business, it would happen. The problem is, you can't drop prices that much unless you off shore production..and normally you take a quality and reputation hit. People can buy a $300 set of no name knock offs on ebay..and if the hardware sucks, and they need to be hammered to fit..whatever..it's what you expect. Buy budget name brand headers made in China, and there is a fit issue, not only do you expect a higher level of service than you would the ebay headers..but now there is also the reputation hit from customers being suspicious some of your products are made overseas.

Additionally..do some price research. Kooks headers, and catted connection pipes for a Camaro run $1349 (minimum advertised price).

The same set up for each vehicle below runs-

Dodge Challenger- $1500
Pontiac G8- $1349
LS1 4th Gen Camaro- $1500
C6 Corvette- $1700
Shelby Mustang- $1400
2005-2010 Mustang GT- $1300 (these are much smaller headers).

Additionally in terms of premium, US made headers, Kooks is on the cheaper end. The bottom line is if you want to design your own header in the US, with as much US sourced material as possible, and make it in a non job shop/contract environment (meaning all you make is exhaust, not like lawn furniture when things are slow), then these prices are what you have to charge.

which companies are you considering as the 5 premium ones? jw (you can pm if you would like )
And what would you say about Doug Thorley or Pacesetter headers for the 5th gen that are running for ~$800 right now?

I agree that a $300 china knockoff most likely isnt up to the same quality. (I say most likely, because I don't have two identical cars to install the two different ones into to compare longevity).

I'm not saying that everyone should drop their price to $300.00 for a set of headers. I'm not even saying that anyone should drop their price that low.

What I am saying is that there are (IMO) reputable companies offering the same product (not identical/knockoff) for a lower price.
and I'm not suggesting that the higher priced companies go and lower their prices. (doubt that would work anyway...lol) I just find it odd that two different companies with the same product both claim "quality and reliability" as their strong points are priced a good amount different. Competition is good for us all tho.
The power gains on headers between different companies is negligible (excluding primary sizes).




I'm not knocking anyones choice of mods. as you and many others have said before.



Its your car. Build it how you want.

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

This is a slippery slope. For instance to sell more headers means you have to buy more benders (see what one of those costs), hire more employees, pay more taxes, and so forth. There are other things like most of the header companies I know are always struggling to hire enough welders because there are only so many skilled ones.

And some things are inflexible and not subject to scales of ecomony. For instance, doubling business will not make your cost of labor do down. A header will still take the same time to weld, and the welder will make the same money per hour. The price of stainless steel is inflexible. Additionally, we have a government system that tightens regulations, and removes incentives as a business becomes bigger.

It becomes a game of deminishing returns. Think of it this way. Imagine you own a business, and someone told you they had a plan to double sales. However to double sales, you had to cut your profit margin in half, double your manufactuering staffing, invest $250K in machinery, and find a bigger building. Suddenly double sales becomes a loss.

Lastly throw in that this is a market largely governed by discretionary spending. I know every time gas goes up, or the government threatens to shut down, our sales go down with it. When you add a lot of overhead, that hurts your ability to rightsize to meet demand.

I agree completely on the issues that manufacturers and vendors are facing, but some companies seem to be able to make it work.