Am I the only greedy one?

[StoutFiles]

First off, I want to say that I want GM, Ford, and Chrysler all to get through this and prosper because it'll make a huge positive impact on our economy and I don't want any more jobs lost.

That said, assume the possible scenario. GM gets the loan...we all know the current loan is not enough and when they ask again next year they get denied. Chapter 11 time. If they don't get the first loan at all, well, Chapter 11 time.

Chapter 11: Will GM run better in Chapter 11? Yes. Will GM prosper in Chapter 11? I don't think so. The ecomony will stay bad through 2009 as analysts have predicted and conservative spenders will not be making a lot of car purchases, especially with bankrupt companies. If this were the case, GM would most likely drop the Camaro altogether after only one year of production, if they survived at all.

If one were then to buy a '10 Camaro SS before the collapse of GM, one would have a very rare, collectible car that would only increase in value. Like I said, I don't want GM to fail, but the though of this is also somewhat intriguing...

[Hylton]

Everyone seems to think that GM going chapter 11 is so bad but it's not. Chrysler did it 2 decades ago and people still bought those shitty K cars from them after they went chapter11. Bottom line is they will still be around chapter 11 or not.

[StoutFiles]

Wagoner is not Iacocca...and the market now is significantly different. The foreign options are much better and the public is being reminded everyday about how the Big 3 are failing.

I agree with you that Chapter 11 is best, but the general populus won't "get it". They will go elsewhere for their car instead of rolling the dice with GM.

[Hylton]

No but Lutz sure is. I have been very critical of GM's products in the past and I do believe that they are building products that Americans will love. The key is to convince them and I think it is possible.

[kylepo]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Everyone seems to think that GM going chapter 11 is so bad but it's not. Chrysler did it 2 decades ago and people still bought those shitty K cars from them after they went chapter11. Bottom line is they will still be around chapter 11 or not.

Chrysler never went to any chapter of the bankruptcy code. And if GM did go in to chap 11 it would lead straight to chap 7 liquidation and they would be done, and not just because people would not and this is a fact buy cars from a company in any chapter of the bankruptcy code.

[Belo]

Chapter 11 hurts the suppliers A LOT more than it will ever hurt GM

[Moose]

Personally, I'm AGAINST Chapter 11. It would be a mistake IMO.

Unfortunately, it seems that many of todays consumers have a bias when it comes to domestic automobiles. I'm not saying some products of the past don't justify this, but alot of people aren't willing to give any American automanufacturer a chance to show how far they've come in terms of quality, etc....and I'd bet that if you askedthe majority if they would buy from an American automanufacturer that had declared bankruptcy in the past, the majority would respond "No." :(

And to "rant" a little; I AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE MEDIA'S NEGATIVITY TOWARDS THE BIG 3 RECEIVING A LOAN! I AM DISGUSTED BY THE NUMBER OF FOREIGN MAKES I SEE ON THE ROAD! I AM SICK OF THESE "KNOW IT ALLS" WHO ARE SO QUICK TO CRITICIZE THE AUTO EXECS., AND WANT THEM TO FAIL!

Do any of these "geniuses" realize how they contribute to all of this?! ie; buying foreign, allowing American automanufacturers to fail = worsened economy, constant "bashing" of American cars, manufacturers, etc.???

Congress needs to give the US Auto industry the loan, the "Car Czar" is ridiculous, (look at how Congress appointed an oversight cmte. for banking, energy, and how successful that's been. ), and I'd LOVE to see the Big 3 get back on their feet and prove everyone wrong.

Oh. And as far as buying a Camaro, and it's possible "collectible value" if the Big 3 were to "go under"; trust me, you don't want to see that happen.

Buy a Camaro because you love the car.

(whew...I'm sorry...get a little ornery over this. )

[Captain Awesome]

It's REALLY annoying how distorted people's view of the U.S. car makers is.

The other day this blogger guy was trashing the domestics without any specific details and someone challenged him on it. The guy came back and said that he would put any domestic car against BMW and see the difference in quality. (Don't bimmers cost a lot more?) in response to that someone said they wanted a competition of similarly priced vehicles and he said Honda and Toyota have better quality too. Someone said he would put his new F150 against anything from the japanese and the original guy cried foul, saying "You wanted to compare similar vehicles and the japanese don't make trucks, so we can't compare apples to apples!"

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny: "What a maroon!"

[Hoss]

No chapter 11 please, survey has stated approx. 50% of the customer base will not buy GM. That is death for GM. There aren't that many supplies to purchase parts from, they would cut GM off, go bankrupt themselves, (the snow ball effect on the hill) or only do a cash business with GM.

I don't think that Chrysler went Chapter 11. They restructured in the 80's.

[StoutFiles]

Oh. And as far as buying a Camaro, and it's possible "collectible value" if the Big 3 were to "go under"; trust me, you don't want to see that happen.

Buy a Camaro because you love the car.

I do love the car. I would love a collectible '10 Camaro even more...sadly it would have to be at the expense of GM's future so I wouldn't want it to happen. However, if it did I would reap a small benefit from the horrible economy and hard to find replacement parts that would follow.

[PsyDoc]

Originally Posted by kylepo

Chrysler never went to any chapter of the bankruptcy code. And if GM did go in to chap 11 it would lead straight to chap 7 liquidation and they would be done, and not just because people would not and this is a fact buy cars from a company in any chapter of the bankruptcy code.

Very true. Chrysler never did file Chapter 11, but what they did appeared to fit Chapter 11 pretty well.

http://www.heritage.org/research/regulation/bg276.cfm

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Hoss

No chapter 11 please, survey has stated approx. 50% of the customer base will not buy GM. That is death for GM. There aren't that many supplies to purchase parts from, they would cut GM off, go bankrupt themselves, (the snow ball effect on the hill) or only do a cash business with GM.

I don't think that Chrysler went Chapter 11. They restructured in the 80's.

Originally Posted by PsyDoc

Very true. Chrysler never did file Chapter 11, but what they did appeared to fit Chapter 11 pretty well.

http://www.heritage.org/research/regulation/bg276.cfm

Chrysler did not technically go Chapter 11 but the entire restructuring was as if it went chapter 11. So much debt was traded for equity that the shares were worthless for many years.

There is not one shred of proof I have read anywhere that convinces me a chapter 11 will become chapter 7 should GM take the pre-arranged chapter 11 route. The probability of this happening is virtually nil provided that ALL stake holders share in the ultimate solution for GM's troubles.

In other words, if the union, suppliers, short term debt holders, bond holders, management, dealers, subsidiaries, and shareholders are willing to sit down and make a sacrifice then expectations will be known to everyone and the business can continue without worrying about a chapter 7.

It's really about creating a 'going forward' plan that all stakeholders can commit and adhere to.

[kylepo]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Chrysler did not technically go Chapter 11 but the entire restructuring was as if it went chapter 11. So much debt was traded for equity that the shares were worthless for many years.

There is not one shred of proof I have read anywhere that convinces me a chapter 11 will become chapter 7 should GM take the pre-arranged chapter 11 route. The probability of this happening is virtually nil provided that ALL stake holders share in the ultimate solution for GM's troubles.

In other words, if the union, suppliers, short term debt holders, bond holders, management, dealers, subsidiaries, and shareholders are willing to sit down and make a sacrifice then expectations will be known to everyone and the business can continue without worrying about a chapter 7.

It's really about creating a 'going forward' plan that all stakeholders can commit and adhere to.

you gotta quit dreaming sales are already down almost 50 percent as soon as their is even a mention of GM fliling the medio will go nuts and the sales will dry up alltogether. and even if they didnt guess what happens when GM has all power with paying suppliers pretty much when they want they will fold up like a house of cards. Allan mullally has already stated this that if GM goes down they all go down. Do you think they will be able to re organize after sales drop probably around 80 percent from a year ago no man get real.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by kylepo

you gotta quit dreaming sales are already down almost 50 percent as soon as their is even a mention of GM fliling the medio will go nuts and the sales will dry up alltogether. and even if they didnt guess what happens when GM has all power with paying suppliers pretty much when they want they will fold up like a house of cards. Allan mullally has already stated this that if GM goes down they all go down. Do you think they will be able to re organize after sales drop probably around 80 percent from a year ago no man get real.

Are the sales down 50% due to GM's financial crisis or is it due to the economy? Sales will be down 80% after a re-org? Really? Truth is that over the last 3 decades, sales of GM vehicles in North America have been down 75% since GM at one time (1979 IIRC) had 50% of the market. Obviously, somebody dropped the ball a long time ago.

I believe that it is possible to sell good cars to Americans from a new GM. Why wouldn't people buy from a new entity if GM offered a government backed 7 or 8 year warranty? I know people don't really think too deeply about what the impact to them is of a car manufacturer going under after they have purchased a car but aside from a warranty (which is nothing more than insurance), there is no impact.

Once you drive off the lot, how often do you need the dealer? Answer - rarely. I have no qualms about buying from a new (post bankruptcy) GM. I believe in the product and have enough faith in the new Camaro that a warranty will not be necessary for me.

People seem to think that it is only the B3 who depend on the American suppliers. Truth is that Honda, Toyota, Mercedes Benz, BMW and Nissan all use some of these same suppliers for their plants here in Canada/USA so it's just nonsense to think that only the B3 will be impacted by GM going chapter 7.

As long as all suppliers are on board to a restructuring agreement, it will be business as usual with respect to manufacturing.