Catch Can empty after 2,000 miles

[Bradrulz]

Did my oil change today and have had my RX Catch Can on now for around 2,000 miles. Not even a drop drained out. Starting to wonder if I have it hooked up right.

[hawkfe]

[Bradrulz]

Nothing to show pics of as here wasnt any oil. Will take some pics of the hose routing tomorrow. Pretty sure they are correct as the instructions and photos on he forum are pretty cler how to route. I have the valve on bottom of can closed tight.

[kjkjr27]

Originally Posted by Bradrulz

Did my oil change today and have had my RX Catch Can on now for around 2,000 miles. Not even a drop drained out. Starting to wonder if I have it hooked up right.

I haven't drained mine in awhile I should prob do that lol. A common problem is leaving the bottom hose open during install. What you should do is start your car and place your finger over the end of the clear bottom hose and if you feel any suction it is open and any oil that would have been caught escaped through there.

[Bradrulz]

Originally Posted by kjkjr27

I haven't drained mine in awhile I should prob do that lol. A common problem is leaving the bottom hose open during install. What you should do is start your car and place your finger over the end of the clear bottom hose and if you feel any suction it is open and any oil that would have been caught escaped through there.

Thanks, will have to check that tomorrow. I know the bottom valve is turned tight to here you can not turn it any more.

[tonyko1]

Originally Posted by kjkjr27

I haven't drained mine in awhile I should prob do that lol. A common problem is leaving the bottom hose open during install. What you should do is start your car and place your finger over the end of the clear bottom hose and if you feel any suction it is open and any oil that would have been caught escaped through there.

Sounds like an ideal solution, never need to empty the can. Better still, how about not putting in a catch can and letting it burn off as the engineers designed it to do? Save some $$$ and hassle of worrying about it.

[Bradrulz]

Spent some more time on it today. Felt no suction, but did find I must not have been opening the valve enough to have it drain. Opened it much more today and had some oil drain out.

[RX SS RACERX]

Originally Posted by tonyko1

Sounds like an ideal solution, never need to empty the can. Better still, how about not putting in a catch can and letting it burn off as the engineers designed it to do? Save some $$$ and hassle of worrying about it.

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by tonyko1

Sounds like an ideal solution, never need to empty the can. Better still, how about not putting in a catch can and letting it burn off as the engineers designed it to do? Save some $$$ and hassle of worrying about it.

Can you elaborate? I know of no 4 stroke engine designed to burn oil.....in fact engineers (like myself) have gone to great lengths to avoid and solve this issue but the powers that be wont let them implement any solutions that add to the cost to produce or any additional mainanance.

But if I have missed something the past 38 years of being involved in the automotive industry from a technical standpoint, please give me details. Always willing to learn as the older I get, the more I find I dont "know it all", but this subject I'll put my qualifications up with any engineers as there are few with the experiance on this issue we have.



Also, any in doubt of how your lines are run please post pics and we can verify the installation is correct.

Also, here are pictures of the intake valves on the direct injection motors with less than 10k miles on.....this is caused by the oil ingestion and as you can see, w/out the fuel/air mixture swirling past the intake valves to help keep them clean the oil casues these to look worse in 10k miles than an old conventional engine run on top tier fuels would in 200k:





The engineers hardley design the engines to do this, or on ALL types of engines today the residue and carbon build up in the ringlands (oil dosent burn....try and light some on fire....wont happen) and cause the rings to stick and not seal properly allowing even more oil consumption:



See the vertical score marks in the cylinder walls from carbon particles trapped when they break loose? This is all from oil ingestion.....and no, there is not agasoline 4 stroke motor designed and built today designed to burn oil.


Oh, and because any oil contamination in the intake air charge causes detonation the PCM detects the knock and pulls timing resulting in less power and poor fuel economy so since the average gas vehicle today see's 1-3 mpg improvement with a proper catchcan (small fleets are volumne buyers of these and only do it for fuel savings....not power)

[L99CAMA2011]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Can you elaborate? I know of no 4 stroke engine designed to burn oil.....in fact engineers (like myself) have gone to great lengths to avoid and solve this issue but the powers that be wont let them implement any solutions that add to the cost to produce or any additional mainanance.

But if I have missed something the past 38 years of being involved in the automotive industry from a technical standpoint, please give me details. Always willing to learn as the older I get, the more I find I dont "know it all", but this subject I'll put my qualifications up with any engineers as there are few with the experiance on this issue we have.



Also, any in doubt of how your lines are run please post pics and we can verify the installation is correct.

Also, here are pictures of the intake valves on the direct injection motors with less than 10k miles on.....this is caused by the oil ingestion and as you can see, w/out the fuel/air mixture swirling past the intake valves to help keep them clean the oil casues these to look worse in 10k miles than an old conventional engine run on top tier fuels would in 200k:





The engineers hardley design the engines to do this, or on ALL types of engines today the residue and carbon build up in the ringlands (oil dosent burn....try and light some on fire....wont happen) and cause the rings to stick and not seal properly allowing even more oil consumption:



See the vertical score marks in the cylinder walls from carbon particles trapped when they break loose? This is all from oil ingestion.....and no, there is not agasoline 4 stroke motor designed and built today designed to burn oil.


Oh, and because any oil contamination in the intake air charge causes detonation the PCM detects the knock and pulls timing resulting in less power and poor fuel economy so since the average gas vehicle today see's 1-3 mpg improvement with a proper catchcan (small fleets are volumne buyers of these and only do it for fuel savings....not power)

That's freaking scarry.

[horrido]

Originally Posted by tonyko1

Sounds like an ideal solution, never need to empty the can. Better still, how about not putting in a catch can and letting it burn off as the engineers designed it to do? Save some $$$ and hassle of worrying about it.

I'm an engineer, too, and these are famous last words. In all likelihood, the bean counters are the reason the catch can is not standard.

OP, make sure you are tightening the valve closed, not open. Is there oil residue at the bottom of the tube?

[tonyko1]

I am not trying to argue your experience or beliefs, I am no engineer. What I am is dubious and jaded from too many years of too many "fixes".

If the examples you provided in the pictures were the norm, and not the exception, OEM's would be putting in the catch can. It is akin to tranny coolers being added where before they weren't and before the 100k guarantees on said trannys.

The OEM's would love to put them in as a stock item, they could charge 4x the amount of aftermarket, it would need servicing by a dealer for many people and they could tout all the benefits you are doing. That in and of itself should satisfy those conspiritorial bean counters. Besides the increased engine life, 1-3mpg increase would be HUGE for a car that now gets 15mpg in the city, esp with the new CAFE standards starting soon.

I am sure you are sincere in your statements, and what the heck, it aint hurting the car's engine, so yeah, great, for those who want it, fine. It just aint for me....I ain't buying it, literally.

Best.

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by tonyko1

I am not trying to argue your experience or beliefs, I am no engineer. What I am is dubious and jaded from too many years of too many "fixes".

If the examples you provided in the pictures were the norm, and not the exception, OEM's would be putting in the catch can. It is akin to tranny coolers being added where before they weren't and before the 100k guarantees on said trannys.

The OEM's would love to put them in as a stock item, they could charge 4x the amount of aftermarket, it would need servicing by a dealer for many people and they could tout all the benefits you are doing. That in and of itself should satisfy those conspiritorial bean counters. Besides the increased engine life, 1-3mpg increase would be HUGE for a car that now gets 15mpg in the city, esp with the new CAFE standards starting soon.

I am sure you are sincere in your statements, and what the heck, it aint hurting the car's engine, so yeah, great, for those who want it, fine. It just aint for me....I ain't buying it, literally.

Best.

Again, I asked for some experiance or qualifications or something...but your basing this on your interpetation? I have been a GM tech and building race and peformance engines for over 38 years. I am in regular contact with GM, Ford & Chrysler engineers and we share tech info. I AM an automotive/mechanical engineer, graduate of reher Morrisson race engine building school, have developed products for the performance industry the past 20 or so years, manufacture 33 currently, sell these to GM dealers all the time, Do seminars for GM service departments on the causes and solutions for excess oil consumption as well as the issues for oil ingestion and how to avoid them (#1 warranty complaint for years running with GM), contributing editor to several performance industry publications, and I am showing actual pictures of engines and their mileage hear in our shop where we tear these down and rebuild daily.

We are known as one of the foremost authorities on the GM 3.6L direct injection engine and also have run, owned, managed, driven, and crewed in some of the winningest drag teams in NHRA & IHRA Sportsman classes as well as the big $ bracket series.

We (current, former, and myself as drivers) hold multiple Divisional, National, and World Championships in multiple classes both NHRA & IHRA and if you need more, how about TSB's directly from GM?

Here is what GM says about it (publication for GM techs):

Service Information
Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help
2011 Cadillac CTS | CTS VIN D Service Manual | Document ID: 2863222
#PIP5029: Engine Misfires Due To Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And/Or Exhaust Valves - (May 29, 2012)
Subject: Engine Misfires Due To Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And/Or Exhaust Valves

Models: 2008 - 2012 Cadillac CTS, STS
2008 - 2010 Chevrolet Cobalt SS, HHR SS
2007 - 2010 Pontiac Solstice GXP
2007 - 2010 Saturn Sky Redline
2009 - 2012 Buick Enclave
2009 - 2012 Buick Lacrosse
2009 - 2012 Chevrolet Traverse
2009 - 2012 GMC Acadia
2009 Saturn Outlook
2010 - 2012 Cadillac SRX
2010 - 2012 Chevrolet Camaro, Equinox
2010 - 2012 GMC Terrain
With any of the Following Direct Injected Gasoline Engines:
2.0 (RPO LNF)
2.4L (RPO LAF, LEA, or LUK)
2.8L (RPO LAU)
3.0L (RPO LF1)
3.6L (RPO LFX or LLT)

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Some customers may complain of a MIL and engine misfire. In some cases, the misfire may be more apparent on a cold start, may count on a single cylinder or several cylinders, and may or may not be felt by the driver. Upon inspection, the technician will find one or more misfire codes (DTC P0300-P0306) stored in the ECM and SI diagnosis may or may not isolate the cause of the misfire depending on whether the intake/exhaust valves are sticking at the time of the diagnosis.

This may be the result of major carbon build up on the intake and/or exhaust valves as shown below so the misfires should not have appeared until the engine has accumulated around 5,000 miles or more.





.







Recommendation/Instructions:

If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis. If SI diagnosis isolates a valve sealing concern and/or eliminates everything else external to the engine, decarbon the engine with Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner by following the guidelines below:

Important Extreme care must be taken not to hydrolock the engine when inducing the cleaner, especially if it is induced without Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A. If too much cleaner is induced at too low of a RPM, or if you force the engine to stall by inducing too much cleaner at once, the engine may hydrolock and bend a connecting rod(s).
1. In a well-ventilated area with the engine at operating temperature, slowly/carefully induce a bottle of GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injection Cleaner into the engine with RPM off of idle enough to prevent it from stalling (typically around 2,000 RPM or so). Depending on the engine configuration, induce the cleaner through the throttle body or an engine vacuum hose/pipe. For best results, it is suggested to induce the cleaner with Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A (shown below).
2. Turn the engine off after inducing the cleaner and allow the cleaner to soak with the engine off for 2.5 to 3 hours (Do not let cleaner soak for more than 3 hours as remaining deposits may start to harden back up again).
3. Add a bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment Plus to the fuel tank and fill the vehicle with one of the Top Tier gasolines listed at http://www.toptiergas.com and/or in the latest version of 04-06-04-047 (USA) or 05-06-04-022 (Canada). See Bulletin 05-00-89-078 for more details on GM Fuel System Treatment Plus.
4. Test drive the vehicle extensively to circulate the GM Fuel System Treatment Plus, which will help to eliminate/reduce any remaining intake valve deposits.
5. Re-evaluate the concern to determine if it is repaired or improved at all. If the concern is improved but not repaired, it may be necessary to perform the above decarboning process a 2nd time.



6. To complete the repairs, advise the customer to only use one of the Top Tier Gasolines listed at http://www.toptiergas.com and/or in the latest version of 04-06-04-047 (USA) or 05-06-04-022 (Canada) to minimize future deposits. It can also be recommended to add a bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment Plus at every oil change as mentioned in the latest version of 04-06-04-051.
Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A
Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.


WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© 2012 General Motors. All rights reserved.


So....this is my background and the documentation to support all I am saying. You can also do a Google search on the subject and find hundreds of auto motive engineering tech papers on the subject verifing it all.

[Bradrulz]

Originally Posted by horrido

I'm an engineer, too, and these are famous last words. In all likelihood, the bean counters are the reason the catch can is not standard.

OP, make sure you are tightening the valve closed, not open. Is there oil residue at the bottom of the tube?

Wasn't any residue and no suction. Was my fault as I didn't fully open it enough to drain. Opened the drain further and got a decent amount of oil drained out.