How important are good tires for road course racing for a total newb

[stevey_frac]

Hey guys,

I'd like to start tracking my car next summer. So, first step is going to be getting some Brembo's on the car.

Next, I need new rubber, as my Pirelli's are toast. I was thinking I was going to get some Michelin Pilot Super Sports, and am still batting that idea around.

But the expense there is considerable. Probably around $3k for new rims and tires.

Looking at it, I was kinda wondering if I wouldn't be better off keeping the same rims, and going to a different Max Performance summer tire, or even a high performance all season tire (save me on winter rims next year perhaps?)

The roughly $2k price difference could be going towards some new Pedders suspension bits, or better gearing, or headers and a tune, to make a few extra ponies. Or a few HPDE lessons?

How important is having awesome rubber when I'm just learning to race? I have no pretensions that I’m going to hit a road course my first time and be totally awesome. Do I need awesome rubber when I'm just learning? Or will my own skill be the limiting factor for a long time to come?

--Steve

[toehead93]

I had no issues with the stock Perelli tires when I was first learning but I think you'll want to have your suspension setup to match your wheel/tire combo. What I mean by that is if you get 1LE sway bars they are not adjustable so you want a square wheel/tire combo. If you get aftermarket adjustable swaybars then you can have staggered stock and square track setup a little more aggressive to reduce understeer.

To be honest I have not run with awesome rubber yet. Looking to take the 1LE for a pro-touring autoX this Sunday. Won't have time for a day at the road course until summer.

If you save with the wheel/tires and go with 1LE sways you'll have money for track pads. I highly recommend braided lines and Motul RBF or Castrol fluid at the very least.

[stevey_frac]

Originally Posted by toehead93

I had no issues with the stock Perelli tires when I was first learning but I think you'll want to have your suspension setup to match your wheel/tire combo. What I mean by that is if you get 1LE sway bars they are not adjustable so you want a square wheel/tire combo. If you get aftermarket adjustable swaybars then you can have staggered stock and square track setup a little more aggressive to reduce understeer.

To be honest I have not run with awesome rubber yet. Looking to take the 1LE for a pro-touring autoX this Sunday. Won't have time for a day at the road course until summer.

If you save with the wheel/tires and go with 1LE sways you'll have money for track pads. I highly recommend braided lines and Motul RBF or Castrol fluid at the very least.

Pedders Pete recommended his sways for this, not the 1LE bars. I might try and get a hold of a pair of SS/RS rear wheels and go to a square setup that way. That should be reasonably cost effective.

[Pierre27]

When you say Brembo's, do you mean the calipers? You're upgrading the calipers?

What are you upgrading from?

Would this be your first road course experience?

I would always recommend just sticking with completely stock equipment and getting in the seat time and then gradually add parts so you can see what and where you made improvements. If you just upgrade the car without putting any real miles on the track, you'll never know where you started off from and how you improved.

And I don't mean do one track day and then upgrade right after. That's hardly any miles.

If you really wanted to track the car, one option would be to get a set of 18 inch wheels, or maybe even 19 inch wheels and get a set of Hoosier R6's. And use those for your dedicated track wheels/tires. And then maybe have a set of All seasons or something on your stock wheels. And when you get to the track, swap them out. I've seen tons of people either attack a trailer to their car hauling tools and tires, or even stuffing the tires in the car.

If you're just starting out though, I would recommend a good summer tire, goodyear eagle f1s, michelin pilot super sport and then move to a dedicated set of track wheels and tires that you use only for the track.

You will definitely need track/race/competition brake pads though. Stock pads will not work. I would recommend Pagid if they make them for your caliper. If not, HAWK has good options especially for beginners.

Just my $0.02

[stevey_frac]

Originally Posted by Pierre216

When you say Brembo's, do you mean the calipers? You're upgrading the calipers?

What are you upgrading from?

Would this be your first road course experience?

I would always recommend just sticking with completely stock equipment and getting in the seat time and then gradually add parts so you can see what and where you made improvements. If you just upgrade the car without putting any real miles on the track, you'll never know where you started off from and how you improved.

And I don't mean do one track day and then upgrade right after. That's hardly any miles.

If you really wanted to track the car, one option would be to get a set of 18 inch wheels, or maybe even 19 inch wheels and get a set of Hoosier R6's. And use those for your dedicated track wheels/tires. And then maybe have a set of All seasons or something on your stock wheels. And when you get to the track, swap them out. I've seen tons of people either attack a trailer to their car hauling tools and tires, or even stuffing the tires in the car.

If you're just starting out though, I would recommend a good summer tire, goodyear eagle f1s, michelin pilot super sport and then move to a dedicated set of track wheels and tires that you use only for the track.

You will definitely need track/race/competition brake pads though. Stock pads will not work. I would recommend Pagid if they make them for your caliper. If not, HAWK has good options especially for beginners.

Just my $0.02

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for your input. The reason why I want to upgrade the brakes is because I've been told time and time again that the V6 brakes will fade, and badly, to the point of not being safe. That's even with race pads, and having them ventilated from the front bumper. The Brembo's aren't just bigger calipers, they also come with bigger, beefier rotors that are better ventilated to handle the heat better.

For the rest of it, I think I'm going to stick to the stock Pirelli's for now. They are a decent enough summer tire, though nowhere near as good as the Super Sports. They are, however, inexpensive relatively which is a factor.

I'm definitely not planning on doing all my mods before I get some time in on a course. Those mods are going to get trickled out over a long period of time. Probably the first thing i'm going to want to do is getting a set of track tires, as you suggest. This is for two reasons: 1) I don't have to worry about destroying my street tires, and not being able to get to work the next day, 2) I'll eventually want a set of R-Compounds that I won't want to drive home on.

I have a friend who races 944's, and he's got a cute little trailer setup that he takes his tools and tires to the track with. I could probably do something like that!

[Pierre27]

Yea generally all stock brake pads will cause fade. I've had it happen on my GTR, Porsches, BMW, it happens to all stock setups. Even the ZL1 and Z28 will experience this. I'm sure they'll last slightly longer than the V6 pads just cause its ZL1 and Z28 "zomg!" but they still will fade after prolonged use. Nothing beats a aftermarket race/competition pad from people that know what they're doing; Brembo, Pagid, HAWK, etc.

General rule of thumb, if you get in a stock car on a road course, the brakes will be crap, not to mention you still want material to be able to drive home with.

You might also want to look into titanium backing plates for the brake pads, they're relatively inexpensive and offer great heat transfer. They sit in between the caliper pistons and the brake pads themselves and help absorb the heat transferred to the calipers to avoid the brake fluid from over heating or boiling.

And speaking of brake fluid, Castrol React SRF Racing is king.

You will quickly find out how much heat is generated by the brakes. In a 30 minute session after you been going at it for so long and braking aggressively, the brake pedal will begin to become soft, the brake fluid has either over heated and they need to cool or you're out of brake pad material.

Without the correct driving technique and spending a lot of money on brake cooling and heat extraction/transfer, you'll always end up boiling the fluid.

Originally Posted by stevey_frac

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for your input. The reason why I want to upgrade the brakes is because I've been told time and time again that the V6 brakes will fade, and badly, to the point of not being safe. That's even with race pads, and having them ventilated from the front bumper. The Brembo's aren't just bigger calipers, they also come with bigger, beefier rotors that are better ventilated to handle the heat better.

For the rest of it, I think I'm going to stick to the stock Pirelli's for now. They are a decent enough summer tire, though nowhere near as good as the Super Sports. They are, however, inexpensive relatively which is a factor.

I'm definitely not planning on doing all my mods before I get some time in on a course. Those mods are going to get trickled out over a long period of time. Probably the first thing i'm going to want to do is getting a set of track tires, as you suggest. This is for two reasons: 1) I don't have to worry about destroying my street tires, and not being able to get to work the next day, 2) I'll eventually want a set of R-Compounds that I won't want to drive home on.

I have a friend who races 944's, and he's got a cute little trailer setup that he takes his tools and tires to the track with. I could probably do something like that!

[stevey_frac]

Originally Posted by Pierre216

Yea generally all stock brake pads will cause fade. I've had it happen on my GTR, Porsches, BMW, it happens to all stock setups. Even the ZL1 and Z28 will experience this. I'm sure they'll last slightly longer than the V6 pads just cause its ZL1 and Z28 "zomg!" but they still will fade after prolonged use. Nothing beats a aftermarket race/competition pad from people that know what they're doing; Brembo, Pagid, HAWK, etc.

Interestingly, I have friends who race the SS, and while I'm sure they'd love more brakes, they say the stock setup is reasonable. All they need is race pads, and they're G2G.

The ZL1 was specifically praised for it's lack of brake fade by motor trend, and I'd imagine the Z/28 will be even better there. But this is all beside the point.

The V6 brakes, even with full race pads from HPS, and brake cooling ducts from JDP to direct a constant flow of air across the rotors while driving: Fade quickly, and dangerously. We're not talking 30 minutes later, the brakes are getting squishy, we're talking 4 laps.

Better brakes are a requirement to race the V6. Those are from people who've done it, and from people who've tried everything possible to make it work.

[Joe@CPR.com]

I do a lot of road racing and in my experience to many people throw parts and tires on the car before they even find the limits of what they are starting with. I can't even count how many times i've done events and just blown past people with full coil overs, r compound tires, etc when i just had street tires. Point is work with what you have, reach your limit with that than upgrade little by little. This is the way imo to truly get better.

[Pierre27]

My thoughts exactly. +1

Originally Posted by Joe@CPR.com

I do a lot of road racing and in my experience to many people throw parts and tires on the car before they even find the limits of what they are starting with. I can't even count how many times i've done events and just blown past people with full coil overs, r compound tires, etc when i just had street tires. Point is work with what you have, reach your limit with that than upgrade little by little. This is the way imo to truly get better.

[stevey_frac]

So, you guys really think I should go out and run 4 laps, have my brakes fade to hell, sit out for 30 minutes while the brakes cool, and go back in for another 4 laps?

I appreciate your input guys, but I'm having a hard time seeing why you guys are arguing against putting bigger brakes on the car. Have either of you guys ever raced a V6?

[stevey_frac]

So, this is where I'm getting the idea that I'll be needed the bigger brakes...

Tyler at JDP was all over it:
"I agree with the others that the Factory SS calipers are a minimum requirement for road racing."
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=23

GretchenGotGrowl mentioned the guy who went all out with the V6 brakes and still had fade issues:

"There was a guy on here a few years ago that did the ducts, pad, and line replacement and still had heat and fade issues. He finally went to Brembos and was kicking butt on the road course. "

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=15

JusticePete said:
"We all agree that a brake upgrade is in order with track quality brake fluid."

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=27

I could find more, but these were the ones I knew to look for.

You guys really thinking these guys are full of crap?

[Joe@CPR.com]

What i'm saying is go out there and find your limit's as is. I could try and sell you a bunch of stuff but i'm giving you honest feedback from someone who actually races (this is not a jab at anyone btw) you can upgrade whatever you want but you need to focus on how to carry speed through turns and not just enter hot and brake late.

[stevey_frac]

Fair enough. I appreciate that, and I sense you are being honest. I'm concerned about the brakes from two sides.

1) Safety... Being out on the track with brakes that go squishy quickly seems like a recipe for disaster, no?
2) Being able to stay out on the track and earning seat time. The HDPE place near me, where I would like to go and take lessons, does 10 lap training sessions with the teacher in-car. I don't think the sixxer brakes would let me stay out that long, wasting my time with the instructor.

The Brembo brakes are worth around $600. The drag racer guys switch to the V6 brakes so they can put smaller lighter drag radials on the car. It seems fairly inexpensive to let me earn more seat time, and let me keep me safe out there.

[toehead93]

The stock V6 and V8 brakes will work if you don't push the car hard but as you get more comfortable you will be braking later and could run into issues. I have seen some people drive very conservative on the track to the point where the brakes would never have problems. So you can do it but be aware that as you start pushing the envelope your brakes will feel it. Better brakes let you push the envelope more but as a novice you might not need it.

If you plan to run lots of track events then i would consider the SS upgrade right away with stainless lines and good fluid although you might not drive hard enough at the first event to warrant them, it will he good insurance. My first track day I was driving real hard and was signed off after two sessions but others take more time.