Do I really need sway bars?

[Trackspec Motorsports]

Heres my 2 cents on this...from car guy to car guy, not vendor on camaro5 to car guy.

It sounds like the OP is looking for a great bang for the buck mod that will inspire much more confidence in the handling of his driver. From taking turns to emergency manuevers, he wants the assurance that the car will do what he wants it to, when he wants it to. And it also sounds like he wants to limit his modding to just a couple items since he is not running the car at an HPDE or pushing 400 horse. And lets not forget the original question..."Do i really need sway bars?" since we seemed to have gotten away from that...

During Camaro5festII, I was fortunate enough to be part of the Pfadt Track attack instructor crew and was given the opportunity to ride back to back to back in several 2010's with various levels of suspension mods from stone stock to stage 5's and also everything inbetween....and what an experience it was to truly prove out each level directly after one another. But each time i got into the car and spoke to the driver, one of the first things i asked them was what suspension mods were done to the car. Most were springs and sways or better, but when the driver of car #1 told me it was stock, I cringed and held on to dear life because i knew it was going to be a handful. I think we even scraped the side view mirrors on the road turning in off the highspeed straight.

The next car i got into, call it car#2, was a pfadt stage 2 car (springs and sways package). Beleive me when i tell you this, it was a completely different car, no BS. Turn in was crisp and clean, body roll was minimal, and the car felt light years tighter than the stock camaro i just got out of. I even asked the driver if he had sub bushings in since the suspension felt very "clean" and he said, "no, not yet, but its on the list." The driver was extremely new and it was their first time on a real roadcourse but regardless of being green to HPDE's, by the 3rd lap, he was really starting to hang this car out and pick up speed passing others. By reducing body roll, balancing the car, and tightening up the response, the springs and sways package inspired confidence in his driving and the driver knew that the car would do what he wanted it to, unlike a stock set up.

I dont disagree with JusticePaul at all with suggesting the bushings. I think they serve their purpose and are a great basic upgrade to help improve handling and rear step in every camaro. But if I had to ride with a leadfooted new driver on a highspeed roadcourse and had a choice of either a springs and sways package vs a sub/diff bushed car, I (and my blood pressure ) would take the car with the springs/sways package any day of the week. And that thought can be applied to spirited canyon carving. I hope this puts it into perspective for whatever the OP's goals may be.

So with that all being said, to the OP, YES, you need sway bars, but thats not all you need.

Just a real world experience.

John

[L99CAMA2011]

My Suspension mods so far are , eibach swaybars, 29mm f/r, made car more neutral, reduced understeer, did not reduce wallowing feel. BMR trailing arm, reduced wheel hop, reduced understeer some more, firmed up rear a bit made it more predictable even on wet, LSR billet toe link arms, stiffened up rear even more , both trailing arms and toe link arms made the rear very stable for everyday or spirited street driving, now highly confident , athletic rear end feel still not enough for me ( I literally challenge Evos, Lotus exiges and S2000 around corners and twistees) but would be enough for you. Pfadt strut brace, I really didn't want to drill but made a huge difference in extreme maneuvers a must for me may not be a must for you, not needed in your case. Springs and struts still stock on my car your v6 may have different spring rates.The front sway bar is garbage way too small for my L99 3900lbs and a highly contributes to front end understeer, and maybe even for your car. I don't believe in the rear balance bar since the front end slop also needs to be addressed as well, Steering rack bushing from BMR or Pedders is also a must,( didn't think it would make a difference but it did big time, made my steering feel more stable and firm). Now my front end control arms are the weak link and I am now replacing my front control arm bushings. After my few suspension mods the verdict is this rear cradle bushing upgrade are not needed for non extreme drivers my rear end now feels very planted, however the rear end cradle bushings are horrible and I would recommend them upgraded anyway even with inserts, in my case I have to do cradle bushing and was even considering Pfadts solid units for extreme ability. I've spent about $1300 so far on all my suspension mods so far about $1000 without the Pfadt strut brace and my car now handles very well for a guy like you. So for you I would say Sways F/R endlinks and BMR rear LC arm reinforcement piece, rear trailing arm and toelink arm,( I personally like Pfadts trailing arm and toelink arm best, perfect blend of light weight and strength, my BMR trailing arm is very heavyduty but a little too heavy for best suspension performance bound rebound wise), BMR or Pedders steering rack bushing, radius rod bushing, a must for the front end in my book, cradle bushings because the stock stuff is crap, literally feels like marsh mellows, also the way the rear cradle moves around I think it would lead to premature differential and driveshaft damage in the future. (((SWAY BARS AND SPRINGS ALONE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM AND CORNERING INSTABILITY WILL STILL BE AN ISSUE SLOPPY FACTORY BUSHINGS ARE THE MAIN REASON THIS CAR WALLOWS LIKE A PIG)))

[JusticePete]

I could not disagree more. The off the showroom floor Camaro is an exceptionally capable automobile. In development form it ran an 8:20 at the Ring in Germany out performing a number of Euro sports cars. You can take your BONE stock 5th Gen to any track you choose with confidence.

Can the Camaro be made better? Of course, anything can be made better. Having personally done development work on the GM built Grand AM Challenge prototype shown at SEMA



I know exactly what the primary concerns were for those on the development TEAM becuase Pedders was a small part of the TEAM. Radius Bushes, Sub-Frame Bushes and Toe Link Bushes. GM solved the sub-frame bushes with hand made Delrin. For the Toe Link and Radius Bushes GM came to Pedders. We went from Math Data to finished product in 12 days including international shipping.

Pedders radius bush snubbers are a GM design. One of the engineers on the Camaro GS TEAM wanted to assure the safety and provide a competitive advantage to SCCA 5th Gen drivers. In T2 you cannot replace bushes. As a safety concern, firming up the large hydraulically damped radius bush was a priority to the TEAM. Reducing unwanted caster changes was a parallel concern. That is why we did the full radius bush in only 12 days from request to delivery. GM wanted to go rag on thier GS at Milford. Back to the snubbers. The snubbers replace a softer rubber insert in the radius bush. The full face snubber goes beyond replacement and transforms the hydraulic bush. It was a great engineering solution from GM. We made up twenty sets for GM and the program was shut down. I asked what I should do with the parts and they said whatever you want. That is how they came to be available to 5th Gen owners.

From the very first day I posted here in 2007 I have been telling anyone that would listen what a great chassis the ZETA II Camaro rides on. Off the showroom floor it is an AWESOME automobile. Does it lean and roll more than many would like, yes BUT it sticks. Does it understeer, yes but it can be driven because the understeer is predictable. Does it have rear end step out, yes but you can drive through it if you know what it is. Can you address the idiosyncrasies of the car with foundational bushes, coil, coilovers and sways yes and your 5th Gen becomes a ridiculous car.

Is a stock 5th Gen scary -- absolutely not. What are the three highest priority upgrades that GM in all thier GS testing came up with -- sub-frame, toe link and radius bush upgrades. The shopping list from GM is exactly the same as our list was for the VE / ZETA / Commodore / G8. EXACTLY the SAME.

Pedders real world experience has been developed with the ZETA and ZETA II chassis for years in AU and then with GM before the Camaro was released to the public. We are not making assumptions on a day at the track. We have lived and worked intimately on the ZETA chassis on test tracks around the world and in millions of miles of every day use by our customers around the world. To be clear, Pedders has lowering coils, fixed ratio damping adjustable coilovers, independent bound and rebound remote reservoir adjustable coilovers, bushes, sway bars and endlinks for the 5th Gen available for sale. You can buy any part you want in any order. How you mod your 5th Gen is your personal choice and we will support you before, during and after your purchase.

However, none of that changes the basics of vehicle development. Stability and predictability begin and end with the foundation of the chassis. If the chassis isn't tight the car won't be right. Foundation, foundation and foundation.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011

My Suspension mods so far are , eibach swaybars, 29mm f/r, made car more neutral, reduced understeer, did not reduce wallowing feel. BMR trailing arm, reduced wheel hop, reduced understeer some more, firmed up rear a bit made it more predictable even on wet, LSR billet toe link arms, stiffened up rear even more , both trailing arms and toe link arms made the rear very stable for everyday or spirited street driving, now highly confident , athletic rear end feel still not enough for me ( I literally challenge Evos, Lotus exiges and S2000 around corners and twistees) but would be enough for you. Pfadt strut brace, I really didn't want to drill but made a huge difference in extreme maneuvers a must for me may not be a must for you, not needed in your case. Springs and struts still stock on my car your v6 may have different spring rates.The front sway bar is garbage way too small for my L99 3900lbs and a highly contributes to front end understeer, and maybe even for your car. I don't believe in the rear balance bar since the front end slop also needs to be addressed as well, Steering rack bushing from BMR or Pedders is also a must,( didn't think it would make a difference but it did big time, made my steering feel more stable and firm). Now my front end control arms are the weak link and I am now replacing my front control arm bushings. After my few suspension mods the verdict is this rear cradle bushing upgrade are not needed for non extreme drivers my rear end now feels very planted, however the rear end cradle bushings are horrible and I would recommend them upgraded anyway even with inserts, in my case I have to do cradle bushing and was even considering Pfadts solid units for extreme ability. I've spent about $1300 so far on all my suspension mods so far about $1000 without the Pfadt strut brace and my car now handles very well for a guy like you. So for you I would say Sways F/R endlinks and BMR rear LC arm reinforcement piece, rear trailing arm and toelink arm,( I personally like Pfadts trailing arm and toelink arm best, perfect blend of light weight and strength, my BMR trailing arm is very heavyduty but a little too heavy for best suspension performance bound rebound wise), BMR or Pedders steering rack bushing, radius rod bushing, a must for the front end in my book, cradle bushings because the stock stuff is crap, literally feels like marsh mellows, also the way the rear cradle moves around I think it would lead to premature differential and driveshaft damage in the future. (((SWAY BARS AND SPRINGS ALONE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM AND CORNERING INSTABILITY WILL STILL BE AN ISSUE SLOPPY FACTORY BUSHINGS ARE THE MAIN REASON THIS CAR WALLOWS LIKE A PIG)))

I like your approach to modding your 5th Gen. It is well thought out and written. Thank you for posting.

At Pedders we add one part at a time. Install the sub-frame bush and test. Remove the sub-frame bushes and test the radius bushes. Remove the radius bushes and test the toe link bushes and so on. This isolates the results from each component. Then we test in combinations. This methodology is time consuming, but it allows us to validate individual components and groups of components.

[mws444]

Originally Posted by Trackspec Motorsports

Heres my 2 cents on this...from car guy to car guy, not vendor on camaro5 to car guy.

It sounds like the OP is looking for a great bang for the buck mod that will inspire much more confidence in the handling of his driver. From taking turns to emergency manuevers, he wants the assurance that the car will do what he wants it to, when he wants it to. And it also sounds like he wants to limit his modding to just a couple items since he is not running the car at an HPDE or pushing 400 horse. And lets not forget the original question..."Do i really need sway bars?" since we seemed to have gotten away from that...

During Camaro5festII, I was fortunate enough to be part of the Pfadt Track attack instructor crew and was given the opportunity to ride back to back to back in several 2010's with various levels of suspension mods from stone stock to stage 5's and also everything inbetween....and what an experience it was to truly prove out each level directly after one another. But each time i got into the car and spoke to the driver, one of the first things i asked them was what suspension mods were done to the car. Most were springs and sways or better, but when the driver of car #1 told me it was stock, I cringed and held on to dear life because i knew it was going to be a handful. I think we even scraped the side view mirrors on the road turning in off the highspeed straight.

The next car i got into, call it car#2, was a pfadt stage 2 car (springs and sways package). Beleive me when i tell you this, it was a completely different car, no BS. Turn in was crisp and clean, body roll was minimal, and the car felt light years tighter than the stock camaro i just got out of. I even asked the driver if he had sub bushings in since the suspension felt very "clean" and he said, "no, not yet, but its on the list." The driver was extremely new and it was their first time on a real roadcourse but regardless of being green to HPDE's, by the 3rd lap, he was really starting to hang this car out and pick up speed passing others. By reducing body roll, balancing the car, and tightening up the response, the springs and sways package inspired confidence in his driving and the driver knew that the car would do what he wanted it to, unlike a stock set up.

I dont disagree with JusticePaul at all with suggesting the bushings. I think they serve their purpose and are a great basic upgrade to help improve handling and rear step in every camaro. But if I had to ride with a leadfooted new driver on a highspeed roadcourse and had a choice of either a springs and sways package vs a sub/diff bushed car, I (and my blood pressure ) would take the car with the springs/sways package any day of the week. And that thought can be applied to spirited canyon carving. I hope this puts it into perspective for whatever the OP's goals may be.

So with that all being said, to the OP, YES, you need sway bars, but thats not all you need.

Just a real world experience.

John

You know John you might ought to have made a little time to sneak over to the autocross. You would have been able to watch Rob take a bone stock V6 rent a car thru the course. Granted Rob is a very good driver, but the car performed as well as and better than a lot of modified cars. The autocross is much more technical, and to make good time the car has to be pushed very hard. I do believe he would have placed had he run it as a competition car.
Suspension upgrades taken one at a time will really make the next weakest part really stand out. Sway are a great upgrade, but without the subframes you will not get the full benefit out of them.
Pete's approach to the suspension in a car goes beyond just selling parts. He is trying to help everyone get the most bang for their hard earned buck. While I am sure he will sell a customer what ever he wants, he will always advise to do it right first.
The truth is in real life not everyone wants to track their car. Many just like the looks of a lowered Camaro. Others only want to slow down the body roll in a curve on the back road home. Taking is a few minutes discussing it with Pete will get them exactly what they want and need at a reasonable price!

[d69chris]

Sways before springs.

Coils instead of springs!

[Trackspec Motorsports]

Originally Posted by mws444

You know John you might ought to have made a little time to sneak over to the autocross. You would have been able to watch Rob take a bone stock V6 rent a car thru the course. Granted Rob is a very good driver.....

I completely agree with this. No doubt driver skills are worth more in a cars performance than most mods put together. Agree 100%. But we are now introducing a whole new variable to the equation "Granted rob is a very good driver". It sounds like he has a lot of experience on the track and knows what to expect from a stone stock camaro as he pushes it so the swaying and wallowing is something he builds into his attack.

Keep in mind, the OP's first concern was that sway bars do little to nothing to add to performance from his first post. "...and a sway bar would add little to no benefit." I was just trying to put it in perspective for him aside from everything else that has been stated.

No pissing contest here, if you reread my post, i agreed with Justice but at the same time, addressed the OP's original concern of the sway bar peice. I think everyone is making correct points, just in different directions since the OP's concern is a very subjective one with several different solutions for different issues.

Hope everyone is enjoying their holiday weekend

John

[mws444]

Originally Posted by Trackspec Motorsports

I completely agree with this. No doubt driver skills are worth more in a cars performance than most mods put together. Agree 100%. But we are now introducing a whole new variable to the equation "Granted rob is a very good driver". It sounds like he has a lot of experience on the track and knows what to expect from a stone stock camaro as he pushes it so the swaying and wallowing is something he builds into his attack.

Keep in mind, the OP's first concern was that sway bars do little to nothing to add to performance from his first post. "...and a sway bar would add little to no benefit." I was just trying to put it in perspective for him aside from everything else that has been stated.

No pissing contest here, if you reread my post, i agreed with Justice but at the same time, addressed the OP's original concern of the sway bar peice. I think everyone is making correct points, just in different directions since the OP's concern is a very subjective one with several different solutions for different issues.

Hope everyone is enjoying their holiday weekend

John

It's all good! I see your point, and it is well taken.

Have a great weekend!

[Inuyashas_Brother]

Thank you all for your input. A lot of experienced people here and a lot of information to consider.

[JusticePete]

While I get ready to fire up the grill - again -- we should pause for a moment to remember all the brave men, women and thier familes that have served our country since the 1700s. Thank you. God Bless You. God Bless America.

[camaro4mybday]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

While I get ready to fire up the grill - again -- we should pause for a moment to remember all the brave men, women and thier familes that have served our country since the 1700s. Thank you. God Bless You. God Bless America.

amazing words my friend amazing words

[mws444]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

While I get ready to fire up the grill - again -- we should pause for a moment to remember all the brave men, women and thier familes that have served our country since the 1700s. Thank you. God Bless You. God Bless America.

Amen Brother! It is all too easy to take it all for granted and forget, they defend so we dont have to.

[AlohaBR]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

While I get ready to fire up the grill - again -- we should pause for a moment to remember all the brave men, women and thier familes that have served our country since the 1700s. Thank you. God Bless You. God Bless America.

Yes. As I just missed my son calling from Afghanistan, hope he can call back.
THank you to all our service men and women, here and abroad and for those who gave their lives so we can "fire up the grill-again" !

And Pete, I need to get Pedderized!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by AlohaBR

Yes. As I just missed my son calling from Afghanistan, hope he can call back.
THank you to all our service men and women, here and abroad and for those who gave their lives so we can "fire up the grill-again" !

And Pete, I need to get Pedderised!

When you talk to your son, tell him everyone at Camaro5 says THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY!