2012 Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Shelby GT500-On Track

[69NMYSS]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

That is a very good example...and cool video. Hopefully more will understand that with each corner that the ZL1 gains in time the GT500 will lose time, hence the bigger difference if more laps were run. I'd still buy both of them.

Exactly, so given the ZL1 was faster by about a second on a fairly smooth, no elevation changing 2.14 mile course, what do you think the gap would look like on the rough, elevation changing 12.9 mile Nurburgring?

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by rez333

I've read that the Griggs Racing suspension will tame the GT500's live rear axle and will literally enable GT500s to outcorner Ferraris. It's a proper racing upgrade though, which is probably why Ford didn't go that route instead of slapping on the Bilsteins and calling it a day.

Originally Posted by rez333

Nobody wanted to comment about what I said about the Griggs Racing suspension? The word on the street is that a particular Griggs Racing built GT500 has never been beaten by any Ferrari.

Serious racers are going to mod their cars, GT500 road racers will install a Griggs Racing suspension and out-corner Ferraris and ZL1s, and ZL1 drag racers will install bigger blowers etc.

In other words, all this bench racing is really meaningless. I will say though that on the street, the feel of driving the ZL1 will be much nicer but its superior handling won't be useful until you go on the track. On the other hand, having better acceleration is useful on the street for not being humiliated when a GT500 pulls up next to you.

Of course you can improve the handling of the GT500 with aftermarket parts, but at what cost in noise and harshness??? That's like comparing a race car to a street car.

The Pedders Camaro pulls wacky G's, but it would be a quite harsh to drive on Michigan roads. There's always a trade-off in handling vs. ride quality with conventional suspension components.

The MRC gets away from that trade-off by control damping in real time.

Another thing, the Mustang's LRA is known for being a little "twitchy" in the bumps and curbing. If you increase the stiffness and damping, that only gets worse.

[Jimmy Superfly]

Originally Posted by rez333

Nobody wanted to comment about what I said about the Griggs Racing suspension? The word on the street is that a particular Griggs Racing built GT500 has never been beaten by any Ferrari.

Serious racers are going to mod their cars, GT500 road racers will install a Griggs Racing suspension and out-corner Ferraris and ZL1s, and ZL1 drag racers will install bigger blowers etc.

In other words, all this bench racing is really meaningless. I will say though that on the street, the feel of driving the ZL1 will be much nicer but its superior handling won't be useful until you go on the track. On the other hand, having better acceleration is useful on the street for not being humiliated when a GT500 pulls up next to you.

I google’d "Griggs Racing" and the first thing that came up was info about them going into bankruptcy. If you have more information about this particular GT500 I would love to hear about it (seriously, I’m not being sarcastic).

[Steve Dallas]

Fine...nothing by Ford. Why not? They seemed to take the trouble to post the 1/4 mile times. Seriously...I consider this a failure by Ford to be up front about the performance of the car by hiding where it isn't as strong. The ZL1 posted these times pretty damn quickly.

Seriously, I think you need to start looking at Ford as to why they didn't.

Now that real world tests are coming in, many in the Ford camp are discounting it...because it seems they were led to believe that the Shelby with it's improved handling over the 302 Boss would basically be a ZL1 killer at the track.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Steve Dallas

But, Ford does publish times for 1/4 mile times. C'mon...with all the Mustang fanboys talking crap about how the Shelby was going to destroy the ZL1 on the track, you'd think they'd try to get that information out....except when it's not to their advantage.

As far as the missed shift, let me clarify.

The difference between the two cars was .7 seconds. It happened in the corner, and it's been estimated that the missed shift could have cost the ZL1 .5 to 1 second of added time to the ZL1's run. Meaning that the actual time with a good shift could have been 1.2 or more seconds. Neither here nor there, because the Mustang took a hit with bad shifting during the other test with Insideline. It happens.

For those that say that .7 or even 1.2-1.5 seconds isn't that big a deal? Watch this video, and you'll see what Inside Line meant about seeing the taillights disappear.

I'd say the Boss 302 dominated the SS. So when people say the ZL1 doesn't dominate the Shelby on the twisties, I wonder what Kool-Aide they are drinking.

Why do the ifs have to come into play again? The article stated that the driver missed third at least once a lap. Considering they ran multiple laps in each car, we can assume the two times are the best laps they each posted. The zl1 won by .7, not 1.2 or 1.5, or anywhere near over 2 seconds as in your example of boss 302 vs SS. The ZL1 outperformed the gt500 on gingerman. Playing the if game is just going to open up another big can of stupid from both sides. What if the driver had hit the brakes .25s later into turn 10, ZOMG!

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by PistonsFan

Of course you can improve the handling of the GT500 with aftermarket parts, but at what cost in noise and harshness??? That's like comparing a race car to a street car.

The Pedders Camaro pulls wacky G's, but it would be a quite harsh to drive on Michigan roads. There's always a trade-off in handling vs. ride quality with conventional suspension components.

The MRC gets away from that trade-off by control damping in real time.

Another thing, the Mustang's LRA is known for being a little "twitchy" in the bumps and curbing. If you increase the stiffness and damping, that only gets worse.

Soo true...my 1998 Camaro SS had the LRA, and when I upgraded the suspension, man was it firm. When I would hit the apex of a turn, had to let off the throttle and grip the steering wheel tighter. Not fun...sorta.

[Steve Dallas]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Why do the ifs have to come into play again? The article stated that the driver missed third at least once a lap. Considering they ran multiple laps in each car, we can assume the two times are the best laps they each posted. The zl1 won by .7, not 1.2 or 1.5, or anywhere near over 2 seconds as in your example of boss 302 vs SS. The ZL1 outperformed the gt500 on gingerman. Playing the if game is just going to open up another big can of stupid from both sides. What if the driver had hit the brakes .25s later into turn 10, ZOMG!

Why? Because maybe it was a driver issue. Yes, he's a professional, but we don't know how much time he had in his car. But with time in the car, perhaps the technique of shifting to 3rd might have improved so eventually it wouldn't be an issue. I know I had one shifting from 4th to 5th for a while because I thought the gate was a little further to the right.

Sure, it's speculation...but the other test...the problems shifting were in the Mustang. It happens. And, yes...you can speculate that by improving his driving with the car and not missing shifts would improve the time significantly.

I think what's most important here is that handling matters in real world driving. Bumpy pothole filled roads are going to be much easier to take with the ZL1 than the Mustang.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Steve Dallas

I think what's most important here is that handling matters in real world driving. Bumpy pothole filled roads are going to be much easier to take with the ZL1 than the Mustang.

So, do people go fast & furious and close off the roads for their nightly road course in city streets?

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Steve Dallas

Why? Because maybe it was a driver issue. Yes, he's a professional, but we don't know how much time he had in his car. But with time in the car, perhaps the technique of shifting to 3rd might have improved so eventually it wouldn't be an issue. I know I had one shifting from 4th to 5th for a while because I thought the gate was a little further to the right.

Sure, it's speculation...but the other test...the problems shifting were in the Mustang. It happens. And, yes...you can speculate that by improving his driving with the car and not missing shifts would improve the time significantly.

I think what's most important here is that handling matters in real world driving. Bumpy pothole filled roads are going to be much easier to take with the ZL1 than the Mustang.

I haven't heard of shifting issues with the ZL1 before, it might be that car.

[oortcloud]

Originally Posted by Steve Dallas

Why? Because maybe it was a driver issue. Yes, he's a professional, but we don't know how much time he had in his car. But with time in the car, perhaps the technique of shifting to 3rd might have improved so eventually it wouldn't be an issue. I know I had one shifting from 4th to 5th for a while because I thought the gate was a little further to the right.

It is a bit concerning that he was missing gears so much. I'm hoping it's simply a lack of familiarity. I know for me when I drive someone else's car I'm far more likely to miss. But my own car, when I get settled in and know it, spending weeks or months with it, I rarely miss.

[Steve Dallas]

Originally Posted by a_Username

So, do people go fast & furious and close off the roads for their nightly road course in city streets?

I wasn't really even talking about racing at all.

Better poise...and I think that's a good term to use when describing Magnetic Ride Control...matters when dealing with normal everyday driving. It also can effect how the car will handle in emergency situations.

Most of us that post here on C5 are really into the cars. There's going to be a people that get the ZL1 that will never come here or care about C5. And, though a lot of ZL1s will be garage queens or track day cars, many will also drive it on a daily basis, or on weekends. I drove my SS as a daily driver and if/when I get the ZL1 (oh yes, she will be mine), I'll drive it a lot too. Maybe not as a DD to work anymore though. I put 45,000 miles on my SS in 2-1/2 years, and probably 1/2 of that was weekend driving around the state of Washington. Not always on the nicest days.

When both reviewers state that the ZL1 was the better driving car, no contest...to me that means you're going to be more confident behind the wheel. Someone pulls in front of you, you hit a wet patch of road, a deer runs in front of you....having a car that will handle adverse roads & situations will make the car safer.

So, remember that the reviewers aren't just going to take a look at one aspect of the car and say "That makes this car better". They were looking at the whole package.

[L99CAMA2011]

Originally Posted by PistonsFan

Of course you can improve the handling of the GT500 with aftermarket parts, but at what cost in noise and harshness??? That's like comparing a race car to a street car.

The Pedders Camaro pulls wacky G's, but it would be a quite harsh to drive on Michigan roads. There's always a trade-off in handling vs. ride quality with conventional suspension components.

The MRC gets away from that trade-off by control damping in real time.

Another thing, the Mustang's LRA is known for being a little "twitchy" in the bumps and curbing. If you increase the stiffness and damping, that only gets worse.

Griggs Racing was way too damn expensive and their upgrades resulted in weight increasing components that seemed like overkill. They quoted me $13000 for parts and like $3000 labor to get a Griggs equipped S197. BMR has an upgrade parts bin that is still streetable and would make any S197 a force to be recon with even against the ZL-1. Rear lower control arm upgrade along with sways and drops springs and strenthened pan hard bar alone will give any S197 a decent increase in corner speed. And oh sticking to the 18" wheels instead or the 19s or 20s will give that chassis the ability to take on mid corner imperfections no problem, been there done that. Actually their is still some parts that my previous S197 2007 still makes my SS look bad even with mods.

[L99CAMA2011]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Superfly

I google’d "Griggs Racing" and the first thing that came up was info about them going into bankruptcy. If you have more information about this particular GT500 I would love to hear about it (seriously, I’m not being sarcastic).

http://www.griggsracing.com/article_...articles_id=15

[gearhead08]

omg ive never seen a site complain so much if you didn't think the ZL1 wasn't going to out handle the gt500 your on crack. Same with the GT500 going down the quarter mile and beating the ZL1.... come on folks use a little common since here and stop the bickering. Chevy clearly had there goals set on an all around track car where the gt500 is always a drag racer first and a handling car second.... besides mod both and they are both gonna be ridiculous with what mods you put on end of story.