BMW M3 vs. Camaro SS?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

The point was that you were implying that since the dashboard has nothing to do with driving, that it is somehow unimportant. Then, I came back with the car wash thing, and suddenly it jumped to "Oh, well that's about looks." You also forgot that lots of car have leather on the dashboards also, something that is easily distinguishable by looking. Not to mention overall ergonomics and interior design.

You need to realize that GM made the Camaro a performance oriented vehicle for the average person. It was not intended to be a high-end luxury vehicle, even though it includes many things you'd want to see, at least, in mid $30K vehicles such as leather, heated seats, etc. They focused on performance and design, instead of the number of options available.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

The CTS-V aimed for the M5. The M5 will surely aim back for the CTS-V.
And the M5 is the M version of the 5 series...

How much is the price, you seemed to answer every question besides that.

[Mosher]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

LOL, ok, so let me see, it's fair if they are the same driver? No, it's actually more fair if you have two different drivers who know the car better. That way, each car can be driven to its full potential, and the true capability of that car can be shown. As opposed to one driver, who may be a great driver of the zr-1, but a terrible driver of the gt-r. Follow the logic?
Oh, and please, where is Kotton, the man who holds the Nurburgring above all?

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the driver is probably not a backwoods hay seed.
(Not that a country boy can't drive or be fast, just, they didn't go down the street and randomly pick someone to extract performance from 80 - 100K vehicles around some of the more demanding circuits out there)

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by a_Username

You need to realize that GM made the Camaro a performance oriented vehicle for the average person. It was not intended to be a high-end luxury vehicle, even though it includes many things you'd want to see, at least, in mid $30K vehicles such as leather, heated seats, etc. They focused on performance and design, instead of the number of options available.

I do realize that. But for all those people on this forum going, "OMG LOLZORS 70K FOR AN M3!!!!! NO WAY, CAMARO IS SO MUCH CHEAPER AND BETTER!!!!!!!" I'm trying to explain where the price difference comes from.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by a_Username

How much is the price, you seemed to answer every question besides that.

Probably 90k...But they are in the same class. Midsize high end sports car

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

I do realize that. But for all those people on this forum going, "OMG LOLZORS 70K FOR AN M3!!!!! NO WAY, CAMARO IS SO MUCH CHEAPER AND BETTER!!!!!!!" I'm trying to explain where the price difference comes from.

And we just pointed out other vehicles that GM has in it's fleet for the same price, that offer the same quality and options, that outperform it.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

Probably 90k...But they are in the same class. Midsize high end sports car

I'd hope to god to outperforms the CTS-V when it is priced $25K over it's competition. Wouldn't the M3 be a Midsize high end sports car? Again BMW just effectively priced itself out of comparison.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by a_Username

And we just pointed out other vehicles that GM has in it's fleet for the same price, that offer the same quality and options, that outperform it.

And that's when I said wait for the M5...Either you compare the M5 to the CTS-V, or you don't, regardless of price. Since most people have chosen to compare the two, then I will also.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by Mosher

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the driver is probably not a backwoods hay seed.
(Not that a country boy can't drive or be fast, just, they didn't go down the street and randomly pick someone to extract performance from 80 - 100K vehicles around some of the more demanding circuits out there)

But I'm sure Toshio Suzuki and Jim Mero are more capable with these cars...

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

And that's when I said wait for the M5...Either you compare the M5 to the CTS-V, or you don't, regardless of price. Since most people have chosen to compare the two, then I will also.

So comparing two vehicles regardless of price works only in BMW's favor? Why did you bring up the GT-R and ZR1's price difference? I'm starting to see a little biased fanboyism in your posts. Obviously you are stuck in this world of GERMAN ENGINEERING > ALL.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by a_Username

So comparing two vehicles regardless of price works only in BMW's favor? Why did you bring up the GT-R and ZR1's price difference? I'm starting to see a little biased fanboyism in your quotes. Obviously you are stuck in this world of GERMAN ENGINEERING > ALL.

You just managed to fail so hard. When the new CTS-V came out, it was fair to compare the CTS-V to the M5 because it was better, and it was what Cadillac was aiming for, and now everybody is running around talking about the greatness of the CTS-V. Now, when the new M5 will come out, we aren't allowed to compare it to the CTS-V because it's more expensive? That's a little biased fanboyism, isn't it?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

You just managed to fail so hard. When the new CTS-V came out, it was fair to compare the CTS-V to the M5 because it was better, and it was what Cadillac was aiming for, and now everybody is running around talking about the greatness of the CTS-V. Now, when the new M5 will come out, we aren't allowed to compare it to the CTS-V because it's more expensive? That's a little biased fanboyism, isn't it?

The only fail would be BMW managing to produce a car that costs $25K more than CTS-V, and still get outperformed by it. I'm sure Cadillac was aiming for competitors in it's price range, but it is just an added perk, as well as an insult to BMW's "ultimate driving machine," that it managed to outperform a car way out of its price range.

[Mosher]

Originally Posted by returnofcc

But I'm sure Toshio Suzuki and Jim Mero are more capable with these cars...

So what you are telling me, is a Same driver comparo, on the same day, at the same track, isn't conclusive because they didn't go find a certain driver for each car to extract every last ounce of performance? Returnofcc that's just dumb. If we wanted to find out who the best DRIVER is then that would be acceptable, However since they reviewed the CAR putting the same RACE CAR DRIVER in each and see how fast he can hammer around under the same conditions is about the best you can get.

So what you are saying is, the STIG for example, shouldn't be trusted because he can't extract the performance out of the cars like those guys could.

[returnofcc]

Originally Posted by a_Username

The only fail would be BMW managing to produce a car that costs $25K more than CTS-V, and still get outperformed by it. I'm sure Cadillac was aiming for competitors in it's price range, but it is just an added perk, as well as an insult to BMW's "ultimate driving machine," that it managed to outperform a car way out of its price range.

Apparently you have no sense of time. The e60 M5 was introduced in 2005. At the time, it was the best saloon on the market. The CTS-V, which underwent years of development and testing against the e60 M5 just to outperform it, was introduced in 2008. I don't see how BMW fails if they haven't gotten a chance to test and create a model against the current CTS-V yet. The next M5 will be the first one, and I can guarantee that it will outperform the CTS-V.