MOTORTREND Head 2 Head (more in-depth look from Inde) -ZL1 TAKES ON BOSS VIDEO :D

[radz28]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

The question is will they even need to do anything right away....

They might be waiting to see, just like us, LOL. We all know numbers sell a lot of cars, and I think GM knows most people on this site won't be swayed, but I don't think one can argue they have to fight to get the people on the fence. Most people can't afford BOTH cars (how cool would that be?!), so it seems like good sense to me to work on something. That may not necessarily be good business sense, though, considering the investment they've already made into ZL1. It certainly sounds like they've over-built some of ZL1 (like "Gravedigger", lol), but that auto' tranny is on the cusp of what I understand to be it's operating limits (i.e. max' RPM and torque capacities, for example).

It's more for bragging rights, though

Originally Posted by tooslow

Agree. In a one lap race, with equal drivers, the ZL1 will always gain time on the Boss around a road course. I contend, however, that the ZL1 will lose the margin by some degree on each lap beyond the first. Unless someone can show me concrete data that shows the supercharged ZL1 is immune to the heat soak that is common for all supercharged cars that are ran in a competitive manner, I will maintain my opinion. It's not for me to prove that it will heat soak, it's up to someone else to show me it won't.

Quite honestly, unless they improve the braking on the Boss, no matter how much power it makes, its track times are going to suffer.

You bring up excellent points. Fortunately - ZL1 is only running about 9 psi of boost. It's not going to make a terrible amount of heat, although, we do see many twin screws making enough heat to engage spark retard tables... We do know ZL1's upper plenum is different that CTS-V, and it's more efficient. While I'm not entirely on topic, it would be more interesting to see the heat-soak on the alleged 12-15 psi on the '13 GT500!!! Anyways - I think it's quite clear that GM went along ways to control heat in most every other system in ZL1, like brakes, differential, tranny, etc. They were quite deliberate (according to their media) about controlling air under the body, around all those components, too, so, maybe out of wishful thinking, I feel pretty sure they were looking closely at IATs. Considering they were bragging about the 24-hour endurance tests, if there was something that needed to be done, I feel like they would have.

HOWEVER - I can't prove otherwise because I dont' know, nor can I find anything stating such, lol... I guess, like you've pointed out, the Boss will be handicapped by it's brakes as the laps go by.

I do wonder, though, what the point of some of these ideas are (I'm not taking anything away from the validity of these points either - I think they're excellent). These aren't going to be raced in a series or anything, or by professionals biding for championships. Does it matter that much how many laps they can make more than the fastest they can go? Is endurance really an issue in this way? Hmm... NA is certainly considerably better in these regimes, though - no argument there.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Let's think things through before we laugh at them.

Car #1 screams down the straight as the start flag is dropped reaching a top speed of 140 MPH before braking down to 70 MPH for the first turn and exits turn #1 at a speed of 75 MPH. From 75 MPH car #1 hits 90 MPH before braking hard into turn two. Car #1 exits turn two at 50 MPH...

Car #2 screams down the straight as the start flag is dropped reaching a top speed of 135 MPH before braking down to 75 MPH for the first turn and exits turn #1 at a speed of 85 MPH. From 85 MPH car #1 hits 90 MPH before braking hard into turn two. Car #1 exits turn two at 55 MPH...

Road Course Rules

Rule #1 There are more turns than there are straights
Rule #2 Suspension Tires and Brakes win more races that RWHP

Now we move from theoretical to on track reality.

SCCA Club Racing 2006 National Championship Runoffs the Pontiac Solstice placed first place in Showroom Stock B (SSB).

SCCA Club Racing 2007 National Championship Runoffs the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2) and the Pontiac Solstice placed first place in Showroom Stock B (SSB) even after being penalized 200 lbs between the 2006 and 2007 seasons.

SCCA Club Racing 2008 National Championship the Pontiac Solstice GXP placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in Touring 2 (T2)

In these years the Solstice was beating the BMW M3, Caddy CTS-V, Ford Mustang Cobra, GT and Shelby GT, Z28 Camaros, Mits EVO, Firebirds and WRX STi. On the tighter courses the T2 Solstice ran lap times that were competitive with the T1 Ferraris, ZO6 Vettes and Vipers all of which were faster in the straights.

The only people laughing were behind the wheel of a Solstice.

Maybe the OP was being sarcastic?... I personally think it's something, but I won't go into it.

I'll admit I'm frustrated by how people write off so many of the elements that make ZL1 except for the motor. I'm a motor junkie, honestly, but I can totally appreciate everything else. It's the sum of the parts, and I think there are recent cars from the past that you can point to with a LOT of power and no chassis to apply it. Sticky tires made up for that deficiency at the strip, but aside from that - that was it. Of course - maybe the car I'm thinking of was really only made to go straight, in which case my point doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by Rock36

Damn it Radz28 couldn't you have just added this to one of the other Boss 302 LS vs. ZL1 threads!?!?

Sorry - maybe I should have I thought it was a good enough video to stand on it's own thread. Maybe it's time for a merge

[ffrcobra_65]

The ZL1 recorded faster in Laguna Seca vs the Boss, that is a fact. We wonder though if the Boss LS was able to run like with the Red Key which, whether some like to admit or not, does make a difference. I thought that it likely didn't run with the Red key since it is illegal still in CA and all states that follow CA standards. Another thing, we can't simply overlook the fact that has 136hp less than the ZL1 and to run only 2.5 sec behind in a lap or a couple of laps, speaks volume to the Boss' excellent road course handling. Some will break out the calculator and boast that at 2.5/lap, after 10 laps, the lead will be 25 seconds but we can't forget that superchargers gradually loses performance with continuos heat/run cycles, lap after lap so, the 2.5 sec advantage after 1 lap or the first few laps could actually be in the negative after 10 laps. If anyone of you has run a few laps at Laguna Seca (Justice Pete very likely has), you would know that it gets HOT up there.

[Trevorw24]

Originally Posted by Deki

Through a corner, not really. You have to stay within your traction limits within the corner, so horsepower is irrelevant really, as both vehicle will have to brake to the point where they can maintain maximum speed through that turn. Chassis balance, suspension set up, and over all tire grip are the biggest factors when it comes to cornering speed.



It's a Mustang with adjustable shocks and a rear brace, it's not "nearly a race car". Why do you keep saying that? It has a full interior, air conditioning, cruise control, a stereo and other things found on a street car. If it was stripped and weighed less than a regular GT, like a Porsche GT3RS vs. a regular Carrera S, where it has no AC, no stereo, has non-adjustable lightweight seats, thin plexiglass windows, carbon fiber body pieces, and Sport Cup tires, I could see it being a "near race car". And it's the Mustang that's the most fun to drive, which doesn't mean it's the fastest. ZL1 should have been compared to the GT500. The result would have been the same I suspect.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

The ZL1 recorded faster in Laguna Seca vs the Boss, that is a fact. We wonder though if the Boss LS was able to run like with the Red Key which, whether some like to admit or not, does make a difference. I thought that it likely didn't run with the Red key since it is illegal still in CA and all states that follow CA standards. Another thing, we can't simply overlook the fact that has 136hp less than the ZL1 and to run only 2.5 sec behind in a lap or a couple of laps, speaks volume to the Boss' excellent road course handling. Some will break out the calculator and boast that at 2.5/lap, after 10 laps, the lead will be 25 seconds but we can't forget that superchargers gradually loses performance with continuos heat/run cycles, lap after lap so, the 2.5 sec advantage after 1 lap or the first few laps could actually be in the negative after 10 laps. If anyone of you has run a few laps at Laguna Seca (Justice Pete very likely has), you would know that it gets HOT up there.

Heat soak is a problem for FI motors. The Camaro engineers are telling everyone they have it under control for track events. Like a lot of things, we'll know when we get our hands on one.

The BOSS LS was on R compounds. The GT500 would be faster on R compounds. The ZL1 would be faster on R compounds. I would be faster on R compounds. Oops I went one to far

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Deki

It's a Mustang with adjustable shocks and a rear brace, it's not "nearly a race car". Why do you keep saying that? It has a full interior, air conditioning, cruise control, a stereo and other things found on a street car. If it was stripped and weighed less than a regular GT, like a Porsche GT3RS vs. a regular Carrera S, where it has no AC, no stereo, has non-adjustable lightweight seats, thin plexiglass windows, carbon fiber body pieces, and Sport Cup tires, I could see it being a "near race car". And it's the Mustang that's the most fun to drive, which doesn't mean it's the fastest. ZL1 should have been compared to the GT500. The result would have been the same I suspect.

With the rear seat deleted it is debatable the BOSS LS has a full interior. The front aero aid is designed only for track use. The R comp tires are not really a street tire. Is it a closet club racer

None of which takes anything away from the BOSS LS which is a very good car.

[Crowley]

Great video and just shows how far the 2 cars have come . It will be very interesting to see how the GT500 can put the power to the ground. I think the brakes will be ok in that car since they are upgraded, however, I think in the end what will give it the hardest time is the solid rear and inferior suspension (but what isn't inferior to the Magnetic suspension the ZL1 has ) ..

It makes me smile though to think how far these cars have come and I for one can not wait to see what both FORD and GM have in store for us with the next generation coming in a few years .. hopefully the momentum carries forward with those models ..

Crowley

[camarofreak]

Originally Posted by Unobtainium

This I think is going to be interesting. Ford really upped the power for a reason.
I think they didn't put the time in on the suspension, so they wanted to make sure they had the power game covered. The motor is powerful, they claim the most powerful production v8.
I hope it's close for the sake of rivalry. I imagine if Ford pulls their head out of their ass and puts some real tires on this beast, it will be 11's out of the box, and less than embarrassed on most tracks with decent straights.
I predict a VIR time of 2:52 flat.

It's going to have 285's in the rear no tire change.

[Grimelock2009]

Great vid, front pager.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by tooslow

I contend, however, that the ZL1 will lose the margin by some degree on each lap beyond the first. Unless someone can show me concrete data that shows the supercharged ZL1 is immune to the heat soak ...

I don't believe that anyone is stating that the ZL1 is "immune" from heat soak.

However, Chevrolet has dedicated significant engineering resources to minimize the effects of heat soak in the ZL1. The results of Chevrolet efforts can be seen in the 24 hour endurance test (36 forty minute sessions) that Chevrolet conducted on the track with the ZL1. I don't believe that any significant heat soak related complaints were registered during the 24 hour endurance test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/12/c...-24-hour-test/

Also, I doubt that one can encounter any serious heat soak issues and still run the 12.8 mile Nurburgring lap in 7:41.

Originally Posted by tooslow

... I will maintain my opinion. It's not for me to prove that it will heat soak, it's up to someone else to show me it won't.

You're the one making the claim that heat soak will be a significant issue for the ZL1. Since one can't prove a negative, it's up to you to prove that heat soak will be a significant issue for the ZL1.

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

The ZL1 recorded faster in Laguna Seca vs the Boss, that is a fact. We wonder though if the Boss LS was able to run like with the Red Key which, whether some like to admit or not, does make a difference. I thought that it likely didn't run with the Red key since it is illegal still in CA and all states that follow CA standards. Another thing, we can't simply overlook the fact that has 136hp less than the ZL1 and to run only 2.5 sec behind in a lap or a couple of laps, speaks volume to the Boss' excellent road course handling. Some will break out the calculator and boast that at 2.5/lap, after 10 laps, the lead will be 25 seconds but we can't forget that superchargers gradually loses performance with continuos heat/run cycles, lap after lap so, the 2.5 sec advantage after 1 lap or the first few laps could actually be in the negative after 10 laps. If anyone of you has run a few laps at Laguna Seca (Justice Pete very likely has), you would know that it gets HOT up there.

are you sure the zl1 was tested at laguna seca?

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

I don't believe that anyone is stating that the ZL1 is "immune" from heat soak.

However, Chevrolet has dedicated significant engineering resources to minimize the effects of heat soak in the ZL1. The results of Chevrolet efforts can be seen in the 24 hour endurance test (36 forty minute sessions) that Chevrolet conducted on the track with the ZL1. I don't believe that any significant heat soak related complaints were registered during the 24 hour endurance test.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/12/c...-24-hour-test/

Also, I doubt that one can encounter any serious heat soak issues and still run the 12.8 mile Nurburgring lap in 7:41.



You're the one making the claim that heat soak will be a significant issue for the ZL1. Since one can't prove a negative, it's up to you to prove that heat soak will be a significant issue for the ZL1.

LOL youre still trying to argue this point? its a proven fact that these types of superchargers get heat soaked.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by MauriSSio

LOL youre still trying to argue this point? its a proven fact that these types of superchargers get heat soaked.

Please show me where I stated that superchargers are immune from heat soak issues?

[Trevorw24]

Originally Posted by Crowley

Great video and just shows how far the 2 cars have come . It will be very interesting to see how the GT500 can put the power to the ground. I think the breaks will be ok in that car since they are upgraded, however, I think in the end what will give it the hardest time is the solid rear and inferior suspension (but what isn't inferior to the Magnetic suspension the ZL1 has ) ..

It makes me smile though to think how far these cars have come and I for one can not wait to see what both FORD and GM have in store for us with the next generation coming in a few years .. hopefully the momentum carries forward with those models ..

Crowley

Nice to see a lover of Ford and GM, like me. I like the new ride btw!