Axle-back vs Cat-back?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

First of quit talking like were stupid, second quit writing book length responses when a single paragraph will do. There is a difference between flow direction and sound deflection/absobtion/cancelation and one may not affect the other. Continuing to say that a perf. tube muffler or resonator is restrictive is silly.

First off, spell check yourself for grammatical errors before you make an insolent reply. Second off, I wasn't talking to anyone as if they were stupid. If you felt I was then there is a saying about "if the shoe fits"...

Third off, one "MAY" not affect the other. Key word is "may". In the case of aftermarket exhaust vs stock exhaust...it does. It has been shown time and time again.

And fourth, I did not say a "perf. tube or muffler" was restrictive. I was talking about the stock OEM units. GM did not build the exhaust system strictly for performance. To say there is no performance gain from an aftermarket cat-back when all evidence points to the opposite is silly.

And BTW, my original statement was to a member (not yourself) in reply to his remark about a hollow tube not being restrictive. You jumped in the convo. I made reply to you hoping to get some kind of reasonable response. If you're gonna get short tempered then you shouldn't have jumped in at all. I am a long winded individual. That is my style, and I talk even more. If you dislike it...then feel free to move along.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Maybe I've just missed a lot, having dealt with the parts of my exhaust I care about.. but.. I thought it had been decided that mid-sections on the LS3 Camaros had very little if any power held up in them and that even the OE Mufflers weren't all that restrictive and pretty much granted you different sound and less weight.

When did that change? I thought it was headers + cats that gave you the power changes, followed by stepping up the pipe size (for big builds)

You're probably right...about the amount of power gains to be had. Power gains seem to be a tricky thing these days. I'm interested in how those gains, however little, relate to performance improvement.

[HumanWiki]

I'm running 560hp/520tq to the tire in an LS3 with DougThorley LTs (1 & 3/4 at that), Magnaflow HiFlo cats, OEM mid section and Borla Touring pipes..

Car runs 149MPH (I'd be a few MPH higher, if I could get the damn thing in 5th before turn 1 -- lame grind) on the long straight at Road America and I'm in the upper 11s on the 1/4mi still on the OE tire/wheel with a bad 2.008 60'..

So.. I'd say the mid-section isn't too terribly bad..

[Cody6.2]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

First off, spell check yourself for grammatical errors before you make an insolent reply. Second off, I wasn't talking to anyone as if they were stupid. If you felt I was then there is a saying about "if the shoe fits"... Sorry Jesus.

Third off, one "MAY" not affect the other. Key word is "may". In the case of aftermarket exhaust vs stock exhaust...it does. It has been shown time and time again. No.

And fourth, I did not say a "perf. tube or muffler" was restrictive. I was talking about the stock OEM units. GM did not build the exhaust system strictly for performance. To say there is no performance gain from an aftermarket cat-back when all evidence points to the opposite is silly. Stock OEM units are just that.

And BTW, my original statement was to a member (not yourself) in reply to his remark about a hollow tube not being restrictive. You jumped in the convo. I made reply to you hoping to get some kind of reasonable response. If you're gonna get short tempered then you shouldn't have jumped in at all. I am a long winded individual. That is my style, and I talk even more. If you dislike it...then feel free to move along. I enjoy know it all folks like yourself so i'll stay.

With your lack of knowledge I'd bitch about "grammatical" errors too.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

With your lack of knowledge I'd bitch about "grammatical" errors too.

Lack of knowledge eh? Ok let's keep this simple...are you saying that an aftermarket cat-back exhaust system offers no gains in hp, tq, and performance? Is that what you're saying?

Edit: You know what? Don't answer that. I'm gonna save myself the hassle. It doesn't matter anyway what either of us think. The dyno and the track are the only way to definitively answer that.

[WhiteHP]

Reading this thread makes me said about my Corsa cat back exhaust I just bought. Can't wait to hear it so I can smile again.

Who cares about spelling or grammar anyway. This be the internetz.

[Cody6.2]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Lack of knowledge eh? Ok let's keep this simple...are you saying that an aftermarket cat-back exhaust system offers no gains in hp, tq, and performance? Is that what you're saying?

Edit: You know what? Don't answer that. I'm gonna save myself the hassle. It doesn't matter anyway what either of us think. The dyno and the track are the only way to definitively answer that.

I love how you keep pretending to be the smart one yet clearly don't know what you're talking about. As for your clever edit it's just another attempt to blow smoke up someones ass. Oh and the difference between back to back dyno pulls will amount to more than a cat-back will add and when it comes to track times that is no measure of something so small as driver skill or error will negate even a 50hp gain.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

I love how you keep pretending to be the smart one yet clearly don't know what you're talking about. As for your clever edit it's just another attempt to blow smoke up someones ass. Oh and the difference between back to back dyno pulls will amount to more than a cat-back will add and when it comes to track times that is no measure of something so small as driver skill or error will negate even a 50hp gain.

So what you're saying is that the gains from exhaust modifications are not quantifiable through dyno testing and 1/4 miles track results? To someone, like yourself, I could see how this nonsense would make sense. But realistically the dyno and track when done correctly are the only possible definitive answer to whether a modification improves performance or not.

The numbers from different dyno pulls will vary but only by a certain amount. Back to back dyno pulls show consistency and accuracy of the pulls and for the average. Then after you modify the car you check to see the gains by doing back to back dyno pulls again. If the average with the modifications are higher than the average without them...that is when you can say that x had x effect. Of course during each pull you have to monitor and maintain similar temps which means proper cool down time.

Same with the track. You do a few runs...providing adequate time in between for cooling. Each time you keep certain variables the same (launch RPM, shift point, tire pressure, etc) and you check your time/speed. They should be within a certain range. After the modifications you do the same thing and compare the results to the previous ones. Of course it would be easier in an A6 but considering the fact that the LS3 has Competitive Mode I would say the technique is pretty much idiot proof...even you could do it.

Provided that all the variables I mentioned are kept as similar as possible, then a 50 hp increase will not be lost even to a bad driver. The bad driver may lose a race to a good driver but that is not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about measuring A to B performance. And even the bad driver should improve his times/speed if he launches and shifts the same way after the mods as he did before the mods. All the info would be reflected in the 60ft, 1/8th, 1/4, and trap speed. And if there is no gain on a dyno or the track then obviously the mod offered no improvement.

So if you know of another method of measuring performance and comparing modifications then please inform me. But to suggest that the dyno and track will not offer any indication as to whether or not a modification improves performance means that you and I have nothing further to discuss.

[Cody6.2]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So what you're saying is that the gains from exhaust modifications are not quantifiable through dyno testing and 1/4 miles track results? To someone, like yourself, I could see how this nonsense would make sense. But realistically the dyno and track when done correctly are the only possible definitive answer to whether a modification improves performance or not.

The numbers from different dyno pulls will vary but only by a certain amount. Back to back dyno pulls show consistency and accuracy of the pulls and for the average. Then after you modify the car you check to see the gains by doing back to back dyno pulls again. If the average with the modifications are higher than the average without them...that is when you can say that x had x effect. Of course during each pull you have to monitor and maintain similar temps which means proper cool down time.

Same with the track. You do a few runs...providing adequate time in between for cooling. Each time you keep certain variables the same (launch RPM, shift point, tire pressure, etc) and you check your time/speed. They should be within a certain range. After the modifications you do the same thing and compare the results to the previous ones. Of course it would be easier in an A6 but considering the fact that the LS3 has Competitive Mode I would say the technique is pretty much idiot proof...even you could do it.

Provided that all the variables I mentioned are kept as similar as possible, then a 50 hp increase will not be lost even to a bad driver. The bad driver may lose a race to a good driver but that is not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about measuring A to B performance. And even the bad driver should improve his times/speed if he launches and shifts the same way after the mods as he did before the mods. All the info would be reflected in the 60ft, 1/8th, 1/4, and trap speed. And if there is no gain on a dyno or the track then obviously the mod offered no improvement.

So if you know of another method of measuring performance and comparing modifications then please inform me. But to suggest that the dyno and track will not offer any indication as to whether or not a modification improves performance means that you and I have nothing further to discuss.

The people that PM'd me and said that I was arguing with an idiot were spot on. You just keep arguing and arguing to the point where you change the subject because you were flat ass wrong. And before you make yet another book long post please realize you're the one that doesn't quite have a grip on the discussion.

All in all I have no idea how one cannot grasp that if something adds little to no horsepower that it will yield no gains. Back to back dyno runs with identical conditions will have a 2-10hp difference. Therefore if an exhaust that might add 2-5hp is installed you'll never know it did anything. The same holds true for track runs as I have never once made two identical passes and I've made 500+ in 30 different cars.

In the end with people like you the best way to see a gain would be on a dyno. And since a cat-back or axle-back have no significant gain over stock good luck with that one. You're going to notice more of a difference due to taking 30-40lbs off the car but that isn't part of this arguement so it is a moot point.


Cliffs:
- You try to tell us the LS3 resonators are a restriction, yet you haven't even seen inside one.

- You claim the factory exhaust was obviously not made for performance, yet there are zero gains from replacing it.

- You claim that only dyno pulls and track runs will prove anything, yet fail to realize that the tolerance between both exceed a gain of 0hp.


Please come back with another think you have a clue response because I need a good laugh, again.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

The people that PM'd me and said that I was arguing with an idiot were spot on. You just keep arguing and arguing to the point where you change the subject because you were flat ass wrong. And before you make yet another book long post please realize you're the one that doesn't quite have a grip on the discussion.

All in all I have no idea how one cannot grasp that if something adds little to no horsepower that it will yield no gains. Back to back dyno runs with identical conditions will have a 2-10hp difference. Therefore if an exhaust that might add 2-5hp is installed you'll never know it did anything. The same holds true for track runs as I have never once made two identical passes and I've made 500+ in 30 different cars.

In the end with people like you the best way to see a gain would be on a dyno. And since a cat-back or axle-back have no significant gain over stock good luck with that one. You're going to notice more of a difference due to taking 30-40lbs off the car but that isn't part of this arguement so it is a moot point.


Cliffs:
- You try to tell us the LS3 resonators are a restriction, yet you haven't even seen inside one.

- You claim the factory exhaust was obviously not made for performance, yet there are zero gains from replacing it.

- You claim that only dyno pulls and track runs will prove anything, yet fail to realize that the tolerance between both exceed a gain of 0hp.


Please come back with another think you have a clue response because I need a good laugh, again.

Oh well, what can I say? I concede...

[SGOS252382]

The debate between axle back and catback can go on forever.

But the stock exhaust is very heavy, and seeing those big ugly cans hanging down behind the car is more than a reason to get rid of at least the rear section of the exhaust.

I can only estimate there's at least 20lbs to be lost by swapping out the rear mufflers for aftermarket.

[Cody6.2]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Oh well, what can I say? I concede...

And moving on.....

[Cody6.2]

Originally Posted by SGOS252382

The debate between axle back and catback can go on forever.

But the stock exhaust is very heavy, and seeing those big ugly cans hanging down behind the car is more than a reason to get rid of at least the rear section of the exhaust.

I can only estimate there's at least 20lbs to be lost by swapping out the rear mufflers for aftermarket.

There really isn't a debate as pipe is pipe and straight through is straight through.

The stock exhaust is heavy but that's what happens when you use rigid thick 409 SS versus thin & brittle 304 SS. Like most things it's a trade off and both have advantages and disadvantages.

As for looks after trying out several different exhausts I'd rather look at the big mufflers versus silly tips or poor fitment.

[HumanWiki]

There are plenty of axle and cat back systems that fit just fine.