2014 Camaro Z/28 pricing announced at $75,000

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Hopefully, there IS an -R option package for the next one. One that ADDS the R-compound tires and CC-brakes as an OPTION (and I hate to say this, publicly) similar in concept to the Base BOSS - LS duo that WAS offered from you-know-who...

*puts hand on shoulder*

That looked like it hurt.



I seriously love what GM has done with the car. They basically said, "This car isn't for everyone. It's going to be heavily track oriented but still have what it requires to maintain streetcar status."

It's a flagship Camaro, ultimately making it #2 or 3 on GMs performance list somewhere behind the upcoming Z06 and in/on/around Z51 territory.

I'm shocked (though I shouldn't be, this is the internet) at the number of people saying it's a fail because of the price. 75K is a steep price, especially a Camaro, but THIS car is not meant for "the common person or the average blue collar working guy."

Both the Camaro and the Mustang are rooted in affordability, but don't pretend a Boss/ZL1/GT500/Z28 are remotely affordable (or intended) to be made for everyone who loves the two cars.


I won't get into the cost vs performance argument as I really don't know what it requires to build a road racecar other than more money than I have. At the same time though, it ought to be pretty obvious (remember...internet here...) that such a limited quantity of cars results in higher R/D costs per unit. What would the ZL1 cost if GM had produced 2500 total instead of however many are in existence now?

I hope ford makes a GT350 (to continue competing with the ZL1 and throw a punch at this Z28 and Z51) that prices closely to the outgoing GT500 that is everyday friendly. I'd also enjoy an R version that costs more ans performs better while sacrificing civility. I wouldn't be interested in either, but I can still respect what they are and why they are built.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I understand the amortization game. Yet the key parts are "bolt ons" not brand new components requiring tons of r+d, design, enngineering and testing. Case in point: the z06 engine, 3rd party suspension, 3rd party brakes, etc. Indeed it has to be tested as a package, but it is not even close to say developing a new motor. I don't dispute that the z28 has a lot of new (to Camaro) parts, but they are not necessarily "new".
I think it is misleading to suggest the car's price is high because of "testing". It is high because it is a limited production car with a limited target clientele. At this level it wouldn't matter if it cost 85Gs. I am sure GM would find 1000-1500 folks with fat wallets.
Also, I have no respect for any product manager who is known by a quote: "they didn't ask me to make it cheap..they asked me to make it fast". Catchy quote? Yes, but it smacks of lack of respect for the working people. How different would would this quote sound if "cheap" got replaced with "affordable for loyal customers"?!

Having a substantial career in product development in the transportation industry I can assure you that you are grossly underestimating what it takes to take an existing part and put it on a new car.

Everyone thinks, oh the new suspension already exists. Well no, this is the first application in the industry and also in a Camaro.

And taking an existing engine? Do you know how long it tales to calibrate an existing power train in a new application?

As Fbodfather said 40% of the parts are new and new parts requir tools and just for grins google PPAP and see what it takes to qualify a new part from a supplier.

The work GM has to do is farrrrr more than what you guys see in the aftermarket.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

If some of you are so f'ing selfish, self-centered and sheltered that you can't understand the importance of GM bringing new blood into the GM fold by the conceptualizing and producing a very special upmarket car like the Z/28 for a hardcore group of enthusiasts, then that's "your" problem (not talking to you mkorgan , just to the folks who this applies to).

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Having a substantial career in product development in the transportation industry I can assure you that you are grossly underestimating what it takes to take an existing part and put it on a new car.

Everyone thinks, oh the new suspension already exists. Well no, this is the first application in the industry and also in a Camaro.

And taking an existing engine? Do you know how long it tales to calibrate an existing power train in a new application?

As Fbodfather said 40% of the parts are new and new parts requir tools and just for grins google PPAP and see what it takes to qualify a new part from a supplier.

The work GM has to do is farrrrr more than what you guys see in the aftermarket.

Yes, and you can't sue yourself for the aftermarket parts you put on your car. However GM has to consider it. Have a couple of cars showing issues and wham! a class action lawsuit. Another reason for so much "testing".

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

*puts hand on shoulder*

That looked like it hurt.



I seriously love what GM has done with the car. They basically said, "This car isn't for everyone. It's going to be heavily track oriented but still have what it requires to maintain streetcar status."

It's a flagship Camaro, ultimately making it #2 or 3 on GMs performance list somewhere behind the upcoming Z06 and in/on/around Z51 territory.

I'm shocked (though I shouldn't be, this is the internet) at the number of people saying it's a fail because of the price. 75K is a steep price, especially a Camaro, but THIS car is not meant for "the common person or the average blue collar working guy."

Both the Camaro and the Mustang are rooted in affordability, but don't pretend a Boss/ZL1/GT500/Z28 are remotely affordable (or intended) to be made for everyone who loves the two cars.


I won't get into the cost vs performance argument as I really don't know what it requires to build a road racecar other than more money than I have. At the same time though, it ought to be pretty obvious (remember...internet here...) that such a limited quantity of cars results in higher R/D costs per unit. What would the ZL1 cost if GM had produced 2500 total instead of however many are in existence now?

I hope ford makes a GT350 (to continue competing with the ZL1 and throw a punch at this Z28 and Z51) that prices closely to the outgoing GT500 that is everyday friendly. I'd also enjoy an R version that costs more ans performs better while sacrificing civility. I wouldn't be interested in either, but I can still respect what they are and why they are built.

"Affordablility" is such a subjective word. So is "value". You're right: even Boss 302 LS or GT500 are hardly affordable to most folks. Yet, the Boss is $50Gs so the Z28 is a whopping 50% more! And BTW the LS was even more limited production than Z28 plans to be. So how did Ford manage to amortize and "test" all those extra bits, including a revised motor, etc? Anyway, we can go on until the cows come home and then some. Bottom line, those that think the Z28 is worthy a 75G price tag: I hope you've already bought one? Lest the whole thing is just about who can flap their tonge faster about a halo type car. But thus far, I haven't seen any posts here saying: "awesome price AND I've ordered one!". Anyway, we all have different POVs and different size bank accounts. My interest in the Chevy line up is simple: price to performance value. I don't care about halo cars that elevate a brand but carry high price tags. I wish manufacturers devoted such efforts for making mainstream products better. Eliminating heat soak from ZL1 would be a good start. To those that are obsessed with testing due to law suites: Why isn't there a class action suite due to heat soak issues? After all, ZL1 is warrantied for track duty, isn't it? Or GM hasn't "tested" it sufficiently? If a motor is officially rated for x HP/TQ but it starts to drop power after just 2-3 laps (as some suggested here) is THIS acceptable? What a crock...

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Also, I have no respect for any product manager who is known by a quote: "they didn't ask me to make it cheap..they asked me to make it fast". Catchy quote? Yes, but it smacks of lack of respect for the working people.

Maybe $75k is cheap - he didn't exactly say it wasn't either . . . put this in the perspective of comparison to the money it would take you to duplicate the last Pro-Touring car that this same individual built.


Norm

[35th02ss]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Yes, everything new has to be tested, but GM built a brand new Vette, with ALL new parts including a BRAND NEW engine and tested, tested, tested, tested and it costs almost 20 grand less. Why is z28 so damn expensive then? It surely is not because of r+d and testing. Folks replace their hoods all the time. Folks replace their rims and tires all the time. Folks repace their fenders to accommodate wider tires. Seats get replaced all the time. An engine swap is not a rocket science either. Folks drop Vette engines into Miatas for pete's sake! And it is much cheaper at a multi billion dollar factory then a small mod shop. With totally different margins. And no extra cost of removing the old motor/components and then installing a new one. Apples and oranges to compare a factory cost to an after market effort. Come on, GM is the biggest manufacturer in the world, not some 3 guy tuner garage.

Correct FOLKS. We can do whatever we want to the car and not meet goverment standards.

To answer your question on the R&D aspect. I believe GM spreads that cost over the life of the particular nameplate. Meaning when they do R&D for a certain car Z/28 for this matter they look at how long its going to be made and around how many units they plan to make over the span of its life. maybe Number 3 can expand on this...

BTW I dont remember many people complaining when the C6 Z06 came out about the cost.

I dont believe you answered my eariler question. If the Z/28 was 65K would YOU buy it?

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by 35th02ss

Correct FOLKS. We can do whatever we want to the car and not meet goverment standards.

To answer your question on the R&D aspect. I believe GM spreads that cost over the life of the particular nameplate. Meaning when they do R&D for a certain car Z/28 for this matter they look at how long its going to be made and around how many units they plan to make over the span of its life. maybe Number 3 can expand on this...

BTW I dont remember many people complaining when the C6 Z06 came out about the cost.

I dont believe you answered my eariler question. If the Z/28 was 65K would YOU buy it?

At $65K I would definitely consider it, that would be about the limit, and only because it has those tasty carbon ceramic brakes. At $75K no way. Just my opinion.

What I'm waiting for is to see what they price the C7 Z06 at. That will uncover a whole new insight on whether the Z/28 is priced correctly.

I still love the Z/28 even though I believe it's priced in the stratosphere.

[Col. Brain]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Having a substantial career in product development in the transportation industry I can assure you that you are grossly underestimating what it takes to take an existing part and put it on a new car.

Everyone thinks, oh the new suspension already exists. Well no, this is the first application in the industry and also in a Camaro.

And taking an existing engine? Do you know how long it tales to calibrate an existing power train in a new application?

As Fbodfather said 40% of the parts are new and new parts requir tools and just for grins google PPAP and see what it takes to qualify a new part from a supplier.

The work GM has to do is farrrrr more than what you guys see in the aftermarket.

My day job is that of a cost accountant. And i hear all the time "you are just adding X to Y, should be simple and cheap right?"

Example - a unit we had built for years the customer wanted to put a flat screen monitor on it.

The majority of people thought - oh those are only a few hundred bucks at best buy that should be easy.

Long story short - the monitor requried a PC attached to it to run the software system. The software system was a prop deal that we developed from scratch. The housing of said monitor had to be designed so that it would not look like we just nailed it to the unit in our garage. Power supply had to change and that actually had an affect on how the unit ran (in other words - delay). Developed a new controller to run it. And on down the list.

This took months to get suppliers inline, pricing hashed out, testing, developing instructions for the line on how to build it, teaching the line how to build it, develop marketing, engineering hours, developing a guide for how to repair the unit, building x amount of test units and on down the list.

This was one new added feature.

Now we are talking about 40% of an existing car.

And as for GM - when i first saw this my thoughts went to - they are going after the Porsche's of the world with a CAMARO!!! Ballsy decision


And as for the badges - the first thing i would do is take them all off (i hate badges on cars)

[Col. Brain]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

At $65K I would definitely consider it, that would be about the limit, and only because it has those tasty carbon ceramic brakes. At $75K no way. Just my opinion.

What I'm waiting for is to see what they price the C7 Z06 at. That will uncover a whole new insight on whether the Z/28 is priced correctly.

I still love the Z/28 even though I believe it's priced in the stratosphere.

I think if the new Z06 has CCBs on it - north of 100k
If it is an option then maybe start in the 90s.

Many believe the new Z06 will be supercharged so that seems that this will replace the ZR1 as well so 100k+ is probably what we are looking at

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 35th02ss

Correct FOLKS. We can do whatever we want to the car and not meet goverment standards.

To answer your question on the R&D aspect. I believe GM spreads that cost over the life of the particular nameplate. Meaning when they do R&D for a certain car Z/28 for this matter they look at how long its going to be made and around how many units they plan to make over the span of its life. maybe Number 3 can expand on this...

BTW I dont remember many people complaining when the C6 Z06 came out about the cost.

I dont believe you answered my eariler question. If the Z/28 was 65K would YOU buy it?

Agree that folks didn't complain about the C6 z06. But note that the Z28 costs the same, yet it will never reach the performance of the C6 z06. That would clearly be impossible with the same power but 700lb more weight. Would I buy one at $65? Not until I saw independent track tests from the likes of Mr Pobst to get a pecking order right. Including how it does against the Z51 which would still be 10Gs less. If it were comparable to Z51 performance wise and was within 5Gs or so then yes, I'd pay that premium for the rear seat. But not circa 20Gs. For that I can get a nice tow vehicle for a 2 seater track car.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Agree that folks didn't complain about the C6 z06. But note that the Z28 costs the same, yet it will never reach the performance of the C6 z06. That would clearly be impossible with the same power but 700lb more weight. Would I buy one at $65? Not until I saw independent track tests from the likes of Mr Pobst to get a pecking order right. Including how it does against the Z51 which would still be 10Gs less. If it were comparable to Z51 performance wise and was within 5Gs or so then yes, I'd pay that premium for the rear seat. But not circa 20Gs. For that I can get a nice tow vehicle for a 2 seater track car.

Good analysis, I agree. If the C7 Z51 beats the Z/28 on the track and I think it will, it would be hard to justify even a $65K price. Ok, I'm revising my max price I would pay to $60K, LOL.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Maybe $75k is cheap - he didn't exactly say it wasn't either . . . put this in the perspective of comparison to the money it would take you to duplicate the last Pro-Touring car that this same individual built.


Norm

Maybe that's why he thinks 75Gs is affordable LOL!!!
If I wanted to acquire a track ONLY car (not legal for street), I would spend about 30-35Gs on a very well sorted, used race car with plenty of spare parts included and quite often a new motor. Many many many such cars are available, including stock cars set up for road course which are absolute MONSTERS. (But I suspect you know all this ). BTW been a route of modding a car (yep it was a Stang) and won't do it again, ever. My strategy is simple: stock car, better seats (if required), safety, better front brakes (if required and economical) proper pads and fluids and proper tires. The last 4 are consumables and hence not worthy of fretting about.

[AZCamaroFan]

I think if someone likes the 1LE , wants more power, but doesn't want to pay 75K, I'd say mod the engine. lots of people here do.