Automatic faster than the manual???

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

Everyone is "assuming" all of this based upon one person leaking performance figures that they thought they remembered someone else saying about non production models of the car haha.

We will not know what these cars will do until the magazines start to get them and test them in the winter. I will eat my words later if I am wrong but there is no way the AT is going to be 3 tenths faster to 60 then the MT. There is just no way it is possible. We aren't talking about a dual clutch auto here. It is a typical slushbox in a heavier car with less power. When you are in the 0-60 in mid 4's range, do you understand how much more HP you would need to make up 3 tenths? Given the same tires and suspension setup you would need like 70 hp more to go from 4.9 to 4.6

The only way this could be possible is if the auto has some rediculous final drive gearing like a 3.73 or something.

Again I have been wrong before and will admit it but being it is the same setup as the vette (engine and trans) and the MT in the vette pulls the AT, I will guess it is the same here until shown otherwise

Apparently the auto with the aggressive tune is faster than the manual and at this point, nobody is coming out with any new times or re-tests of the V8. Without the aggressive tune, it might match the manual's 4.9 that it received during testing. However only time will tell. Hopefully we get some more numbers soon as the lack of pictures and info this week is making my head spin. I need more pictures and info

[mega]

if they could fix the "disconnected" feeling on the automatics, ie when you let off the gas the RPM should not drop, and when you press back on the gas the response should be immediate, like a manual transmission

that's when I'll consider an auto

lately a few other cars have faster 0-60 times with automatics, lower gearing, and you never let off the gas, and the auto shift times are very very fast on these newer transmissions

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by mega

if they could fix the "disconnected" feeling on the automatics, ie when you let off the gas the RPM should not drop, and when you press back on the gas the response should be immediate, like a manual transmission

that's when I'll consider an auto

When you put a GM auto (new 6-speeds) into "sport" mode. When you let off the gas, it will not upshift to lower your revs. It's stays in the gear you're in, much like a manual. I think that's what you're talking about?

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

When you put a GM auto (new 6-speeds) into "sport" mode. When you let off the gas, it will not upshift to lower your revs. It's stays in the gear you're in, much like a manual. I think that's what you're talking about?

He's probably talking about that and the torque converter coming unlocked.

[mega]

yes, that, and the torque converter unlocking, when I let off the gas, and press the gas again, there should be no RPM change it should stay locked like a manual, I've not driven any that are able to do this yet, other than the new dual clutch manual transmissions like VW/audi use, and the new one from bmw

I have yet to drive an auto, that does not unlock when you let off the gas, they also force shift when you hit redline too, even if you are in the middle of a turn and dont want it to shift

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by mega

if they could fix the "disconnected" feeling on the automatics, ie when you let off the gas the RPM should not drop, and when you press back on the gas the response should be immediate, like a manual transmission

that's when I'll consider an auto

lately a few other cars have faster 0-60 times with automatics, lower gearing, and you never let off the gas, and the auto shift times are very very fast on these newer transmissions

I agree, there is always a second of lag when you press the pedal. Perhaps this time the lag is less. I would need someone to confirm that who has driven the Camaro V8 automatic though.. I'm dead-set on getting the manual, however my wife won't be able to drive it then... It will be a tough call when the time comes but I think I will go with manual since it will be my daily driver and my wife has a Pontiac G6 all to herself anyways..

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

When you put a GM auto (new 6-speeds) into "sport" mode. When you let off the gas, it will not upshift to lower your revs. It's stays in the gear you're in, much like a manual. I think that's what you're talking about?

lol, I missed this post of yours as I posted my question above.. So you have hands on experience with this and know there is a sports mode for the Camaro's V8 auto??

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Supermans

So you have hands on experience with this and know there is a sports mode for the Camaro's V8 auto??

Can you imagine it NOT coming with a sport mode? My pickup truck has "Tow/Haul" mode which is nearly the same program as a sport mode would be... they can't possibly not include sport mode.

Anyway, considering the paddle shifters, it will certainly behave similarly when you choose a gear.

[Camaro82]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

Everyone is "assuming" all of this based upon one person leaking performance figures that they thought they remembered someone else saying about non production models of the car haha.

We will not know what these cars will do until the magazines start to get them and test them in the winter. I will eat my words later if I am wrong but there is no way the AT is going to be 3 tenths faster to 60 then the MT. There is just no way it is possible. We aren't talking about a dual clutch auto here. It is a typical slushbox in a heavier car with less power. When you are in the 0-60 in mid 4's range, do you understand how much more HP you would need to make up 3 tenths? Given the same tires and suspension setup you would need like 70 hp more to go from 4.9 to 4.6

The only way this could be possible is if the auto has some rediculous final drive gearing like a 3.73 or something.

Again I have been wrong before and will admit it but being it is the same setup as the vette (engine and trans) and the MT in the vette pulls the AT, I will guess it is the same here until shown otherwise

I totally agree with you. I actually think that 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs were mistakenly switched between auto and manual.
I really can't see how auto, less HP, less Torque, More curb weight, not BMW M automatic, can out-run more Hp, more torque, less curb weight Manual.

Right now, I am just patiently waiting for outside sources, to test the car out. I will be really surprised if auto is indeed faster than manual, with ONLY better gear ratio. (faster gear shift doesn't apply because this is slushbox, not BMW M automatics...)

[Mblock66]

Originally Posted by Supermans

Apparently the auto with the aggressive tune is faster than the manual and at this point, nobody is coming out with any new times or re-tests of the V8. Without the aggressive tune, it might match the manual's 4.9 that it received during testing. However only time will tell. Hopefully we get some more numbers soon as the lack of pictures and info this week is making my head spin. I need more pictures and info

The 2008 Vettes already HAVE the better tune on them. They improved the TCU tuning over the 2007 AT 6 speed auto and it made a nice difference. However the 2008 LS3 MT is still beating the 2008 LS3 AT even with this new AT tune module in place.

These cars should perform dead on what the vettes do just slower. LS3 6060 trans IRS etc etc

[CamaroSpike23]

damn.... i leave for 3 days and everything goes rediculous

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

yes no maybe.

if you want a lot more respect for going fast then get a manual.

an auto is the way to go if you want fast consistent times and want to pay out the arse when you break something. an manual is cheaper to work on and in my mind earns more respect if you can muscle the car faster then avg.

well, define manual...lol my auto is has a manual valve body. i have to shift it up and down when i drive and race. there is no more "punch it and go"
and as far as paying out the arse when you break something... thats why you pay out the arse BEFORE you get stupid on it. tho the rear might not hold...lol

Originally Posted by theholycow

I
They're both fast, but if you're interested in squeezing out every last fraction of a second on the drag strip then get the auto for sure.

What is a "reverse" manual valve body?

You can respect someone for how they go fast, but I'd give more respect to the one who produces results.

reverse manual valve body...

instead of being (and this is for an A4)
p
R
N
4
3
2
1

it is reversed so it is
P
R
N
1
2
3
4

and as i stated above, its a manual valve body, so i have to make every shift manually. whichever gear i put my auto in, it stays...regardless. i just dont use a clutch or mess with the time delay with powershifting. jus slap the stick and go. (i say "slap" cus i also have a reverse lockout so it wont inadvertently go into reverse when im downshifting)
also, running a reverse valve body is the only way to run a trans brake as you effectively put the trans in 1st and reverse at the same time, which allows you to spin the trans and stall up the motor to your ideal rpm, then when the light drops, push a button and you go.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I respect the ones that have fast setups but I respect the ones that muscle their way to a faster time with a stick. it's harder to do and so many factors play into it. unlike an auto where you stomp and go.

like i said, manual valve body... no more stomp and go. most all high end race autos, are manual valve bodys. no stomp and go....period. they still have to shift thru the gears, just in a straight line, instead of back and forth. lol

Originally Posted by Mblock66

I will eat my words later if I am wrong but there is no way the AT is going to be 3 tenths faster to 60 then the MT. There is just no way it is possible. We aren't talking about a dual clutch auto here. It is a typical slushbox in a heavier car with less power. When you are in the 0-60 in mid 4's range, do you understand how much more HP you would need to make up 3 tenths? Given the same tires and suspension setup you would need like 70 hp more to go from 4.9 to 4.6

The only way this could be possible is if the auto has some rediculous final drive gearing like a 3.73 or something.

Again I have been wrong before and will admit it but being it is the same setup as the vette (engine and trans) and the MT in the vette pulls the AT, I will guess it is the same here until shown otherwise

its possible, hell, it happend. see my above statements.

another thing i didnt touch on, but you reminded me of... gear ratios.

the auto comes out with a 1st gear ratio of 4.03:1 compared to the manual's 3.01:1
the auto is geared with a lower rear ratio, but higher trans ratios accross the board.

as for hp needed to be fast.... once again, IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MUCH POWER YOU MAKE IF YOU CANT PUT IT TO THE GROUND.
the auto allows for more "punch and go" as being a "slushbox" it absorbs some of the drivetrain shockload when you mash the gas. where as the manual, being a direct-line setup, has nothing but the cars suspension to absorb the shock load.
thereby negating an identical suspension setup as the susp setup wont take as hard of a hit with the auto as it would with the manual.

also, they said that the shift points were "optimized", meaning that the trans is shifting at the BEST possible point on the power curve and it is faster than a powershift. where as the manual, you disengage the motor and shift at redline (or wherever you were told the shift points need to be) but its not as fast as the auto, which means you are going to be slower than the auto.
yes it has less power, but it makes use of that power better.

Originally Posted by mega

if they could fix the "disconnected" feeling on the automatics, ie when you let off the gas the RPM should not drop, and when you press back on the gas the response should be immediate, like a manual transmission

that's when I'll consider an auto

lately a few other cars have faster 0-60 times with automatics, lower gearing, and you never let off the gas, and the auto shift times are very very fast on these newer transmissions

the problem with doing the first part is that with a manual, you have a direct-line hookup to the rear wheels. so when you let off the gas (without pushing in the clutch) the car is keeping the motor spinning at that higher rpm. where as with autos, the torque converter comes unlocked (which is a good thing) and allows it to drop.

Originally Posted by mega

I have yet to drive an auto, that does not unlock when you let off the gas, they also force shift when you hit redline too, even if you are in the middle of a turn and dont want it to shift

do you leave your car in OD? or do you select your gears?

Originally Posted by Camaro82

I totally agree with you. I actually think that 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs were mistakenly switched between auto and manual.
I really can't see how auto, less HP, less Torque, More curb weight, not BMW M automatic, can out-run more Hp, more torque, less curb weight Manual.

Right now, I am just patiently waiting for outside sources, to test the car out. I will be really surprised if auto is indeed faster than manual, with ONLY better gear ratio. (faster gear shift doesn't apply because this is slushbox, not BMW M automatics...)

first off, how does a faster gear shift not apply? granted its not "as fast" as the bmw, but if its faster than a human, than its faster than the manual, slushbox or not.

now as for how less hp, less tq, can outrun more. simple. as ive said repeatedly, IT DOESNT HOW MUCH POWER YOU HAVE IF YOU CANT PUT IT TO THE GROUND.
plain and simple. the record for a bolt on LT1 is 11.9 (manual) and 11.6 (auto). thats faster than Cammed LS1s. the manual was pushing about 346rwhp. there's guys out there with 500 hp cars who are still in the 12s.

with an automatic, it takes a lot more of the initial drivetrain shock when the light turns green. therefore, you can mash the gas a lot easier than with a manual where if you dump it and dont ease (and i use that term loosely) into it, you will just spin the tires.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

it is reversed so it is
PRN1234

Nice.

you effectively put the trans in 1st and reverse at the same time

Can you elaborate on that? I totally don't get it.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by theholycow

Nice.



Can you elaborate on that? I totally don't get it.

thanks.... its a lot easier to pull the shifter continuously back in stages when you are shoved in your seat than it is to shove it forward, then back, than forward again, then back, etc...lol



and
sure...


a trans-brake conversion consists of a few (reversible) case modifications and a specially modified valve body that's equipped with an electric solenoid. A driver-operated pushbutton triggers the solenoid to move a shuttle valve, causing the transmission's hydraulic circuitry to engage First and Reverse gears at the same time. If this sounds like a recipe for self-destruction, remember the car is not in motion when the activation button is depressed. With the transmission input-shaft effectively locked, the driver then mashes the accelerator pedal to the floor, giving the torque converter no option other than to slip until its absolute stall speed is reached. When the light turns green, the driver releases the activation button and the car explodes off the line. Once moving, the driver upshifts the transmission in the usual way.


While a trans brake will typically produce a higher stall speed than foot-braking alone, it won't transform a low-stall OE stocker into a full race converter, so don't look for miracles. The best plan is to select a torque converter that, with the trans brake engaged, allows the motor to flash to within 200 rpm of its torque peak. There are plenty of chassis dynos in the land these days, so peak torque data is easily obtained for a modest investment.

Also, because trans-brake use requires modified staging and launch techniques on the already nerve-wracking launch pad, make the job as easy as possible. With a little practice, it soon becomes second nature and you'll discover that better reaction times are possible thanks to the consistent launch rpm versus the less repeatable method of pedal-juggling the launch stall speed. Also, most people are able to release a fingertip button more quickly than they can move their feet to lift the brake pedal and mash the gas, another reaction time benefit made possible by the trans brake.

Most importantly, a trans brake will likely subject the rear tires and suspension to increased torque. the term "traction surplus" comes to mind, it describes the desirable condition in which full engine power can be applied to the pavement without tire slip. Installing a trans brake on a car that is already at its traction limit can cause the tires to spin and reduce performance. Buy bigger slicks!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Supermans

lol, I missed this post of yours as I posted my question above.. So you have hands on experience with this and know there is a sports mode for the Camaro's V8 auto??

I do not. But it's a very safe guess; even if they don't call it "sport mode". In order to use the paddles, there has to be another gate. S, M, whatever...in this mode on the Corvette; the Auto doesn't behave like your average "slushbox" - it hold gears, it shifts aggressively, etc.