E85 questions!

['10CamaroDude]

Do whatever you want, it's your car, but you should know the big picture when
going to such a low T-stat rating. What I wrote is not gospel, nor the word of
GOD, it's observations throughout the car community.


Lower temps thermostats do no set the ceiling for the temperatures. Even when the
thermostat is fully open, you will still be the mercy of the coolant system's ability to
remove heat. The biggest misunderstanding about lower temp thermostats is that
people believe they make the engine run cooler. They don't necessarily do that, and
do not under heavy load.

If you do not tune it for the fans to kick on at the t-stat rating, then it's also not
going to work as well for cooling. If you put a 160 in, and do nothing else, it just
takes longer for the engine to heat up. The fans still won't kick on till the OEM temp
setting is reached.

The thermostat can only determine when the cooling system is allowed to start
cooling the engine. It sets a floor, not a ceiling on engine temperatures.

The problem with a low temp thermostat then for regular driving is that there are
times when the car will be running at a temperature lower than it's design intended.
The result is increased wear on the engine's internals. It's essentially the same as if
you assembled the engine with clearances tighter than designed for because you
didn't follow the directions or your tools were not calibrated properly. If the engine is
below operating temperature, the bearings, rings, and other components are not yet
expanded in size and therefore they "bang" against the other metals in the engine
more than they would at operating temperature. Limiting wear isn’t necessarily a big
concern with a race engine though, since the expectation is for a short service life
anyway.

In any car, the floor (opening temp) of the thermostat is completely irrelevant
unless you are running a very efficient and large radiator. Once you're out on the
track for half a lap or so, your coolant temps are going to be in the 200 range anyway
so the thermostat is fully open regardless.

So if you want to test this, the best thing to do is get an OBDII scanner and go out in
an OBDII car and monitor the ECT sensor and watch how coolant temps regulate and
spike as load changes.

If the lower thermostat DID bring the temps of the intake manifold down 20 degrees,
the actual change in intake temps would be negligible to zero on the road. Regardless,
it would take literally a second or two before temps would be regulated by the cooling
system, not the thermostat anyway since under load the engine is going to run well
above the thermostat fully open mark.

Hunting, meaning dramatic changes in coolant temperature, is a common problem with
lower-quality thermostats because they allow too much flow when wide open. In a
worst-case scenario, hunting can result in a cracked cylinder head from being exposed
to such dramatic changes in temperatures, and at the very least it causes a
significant reduction in the efficiency of the cooling system.

NTCL’s low-temperature thermostats are engineered to prevent hunting. They are
designed with a main valve that opens in a more controlled fashion, preventing
coolant from suddenly rushing to the radiator and causing the rapid change in coolant
temperature associated with hunting.

Also, as a note running E85, cylinder temps are lower because of the fuel
characteristics. Since you need more ethanol to produce the same results,
the combustion chambers are naturally running cooler because of the fuel.
Boosted applications, people will go with a higher T-stat instead of lower.
Ethanol with lower operating temps can also milk the oil. Oil has to be 210+
degrees to burn off the contaminants. If you run at 160-170 degrees, then the oil
temperature wont be high enough to boil the water that condenses inside the
crankcase when an engine is shut off and cools. This milks the oil. This means you
should be changing your oil more often than the 7500 OCI with a lower T-stat.


Again;
Do whatever you want, it's your car, but you should know the big picture when
going to such a low T-stat rating. What I wrote is not gospel, nor the word of
GOD, it's observations throughout the car community.

[RyangAsh]

Originally Posted by '10CamaroDude

Do whatever you want, it's your car, but you should know the big picture when
going to such a low T-stat rating. What I wrote is not gospel, nor the word of
GOD, it's observations throughout the car community.


Lower temps thermostats do no set the ceiling for the temperatures. Even when the
thermostat is fully open, you will still be the mercy of the coolant system's ability to
remove heat. The biggest misunderstanding about lower temp thermostats is that
people believe they make the engine run cooler. They don't necessarily do that, and
do not under heavy load.

If you do not tune it for the fans to kick on at the t-stat rating, then it's also not
going to work as well for cooling. If you put a 160 in, and do nothing else, it just
takes longer for the engine to heat up. The fans still won't kick on till the OEM temp
setting is reached.

The thermostat can only determine when the cooling system is allowed to start
cooling the engine. It sets a floor, not a ceiling on engine temperatures.

The problem with a low temp thermostat then for regular driving is that there are
times when the car will be running at a temperature lower than it's design intended.
The result is increased wear on the engine's internals. It's essentially the same as if
you assembled the engine with clearances tighter than designed for because you
didn't follow the directions or your tools were not calibrated properly. If the engine is
below operating temperature, the bearings, rings, and other components are not yet
expanded in size and therefore they "bang" against the other metals in the engine
more than they would at operating temperature. Limiting wear isn’t necessarily a big
concern with a race engine though, since the expectation is for a short service life
anyway.

In any car, the floor (opening temp) of the thermostat is completely irrelevant
unless you are running a very efficient and large radiator. Once you're out on the
track for half a lap or so, your coolant temps are going to be in the 200 range anyway
so the thermostat is fully open regardless.

So if you want to test this, the best thing to do is get an OBDII scanner and go out in
an OBDII car and monitor the ECT sensor and watch how coolant temps regulate and
spike as load changes.

If the lower thermostat DID bring the temps of the intake manifold down 20 degrees,
the actual change in intake temps would be negligible to zero on the road. Regardless,
it would take literally a second or two before temps would be regulated by the cooling
system, not the thermostat anyway since under load the engine is going to run well
above the thermostat fully open mark.

Hunting, meaning dramatic changes in coolant temperature, is a common problem with
lower-quality thermostats because they allow too much flow when wide open. In a
worst-case scenario, hunting can result in a cracked cylinder head from being exposed
to such dramatic changes in temperatures, and at the very least it causes a
significant reduction in the efficiency of the cooling system.

NTCL’s low-temperature thermostats are engineered to prevent hunting. They are
designed with a main valve that opens in a more controlled fashion, preventing
coolant from suddenly rushing to the radiator and causing the rapid change in coolant
temperature associated with hunting.

Also, as a note running E85, cylinder temps are lower because of the fuel
characteristics. Since you need more ethanol to produce the same results,
the combustion chambers are naturally running cooler because of the fuel.
Boosted applications, people will go with a higher T-stat instead of lower.
Ethanol with lower operating temps can also milk the oil. Oil has to be 210+
degrees to burn off the contaminants. If you run at 160-170 degrees, then the oil
temperature wont be high enough to boil the water that condenses inside the
crankcase when an engine is shut off and cools. This milks the oil. This means you
should be changing your oil more often than the 7500 OCI with a lower T-stat.


Again;
Do whatever you want, it's your car, but you should know the big picture when
going to such a low T-stat rating. What I wrote is not gospel, nor the word of
GOD, it's observations throughout the car community.

Wow, some actual facts and common sense.

[JB'sZL1]

Good post '10. That's what I meant w/o writing for ten minutes. It is also ill-advised to run 1300's, but not bigger rails, or a Melling, or a timing chain. Since my posts go ignored, I'll stop posting here.

[RobZL1]

I'm curious about the timing chain. Never heard that one. I run a C5R Katech/iwis.

I run a Melling pump, too, but it's been ported, coated, blueprinted. I wouldn't run one out of the box, though.

[DrkPhx]

Nice copy and paste job. I constantly data log this car (and the same with my previous set up) and I've never seen a 160 t-stat drop ECT 20 degrees. The most I see is 6-8 degrees drop on average. It still reaches optimum operating temp. You also have to make sure not kick on the fans too much and too soon, so it's a balance to get it right. As for oil temperature, I never go WOT until it's fully warmed up.

['10CamaroDude]

No, it was copy a while ago, edit, and paste. I could have said that all, but I already
have an article saved with all that information. I keep a lot of reference materials on
cars I have owned, or currently own. I work in a performance shop, we need to have
it.

[Astatenate]

Originally Posted by Juiced1

The 160 stat shouldn't hurt anything. Just make sure you let your tuner know that it's in there so they can adjust the tune accordinglly.



I would recommend the ID1300 or a set of FIC 127lb injectors. 1000cc injectors will be pretty maxed out on E85 around your estimated power level.

Ok sounds good. I’ll definitely stick with 1300cc injectors to be safe and not waste $ having to order them later bc my fuel is tapped out on 1000’s!

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

Good post '10. That's what I meant w/o writing for ten minutes. It is also ill-advised to run 1300's, but not bigger rails, or a Melling, or a timing chain. Since my posts go ignored, I'll stop posting here.

I didn’t ignore your post (not sure if this was in regards to me) , but I Quoted your post and asked if anyone had personal experience with t-stat causing issues. Since you didn’t have personal problems / experience with it. My tuner also mentioned upgrading to a c5r chain when I do the GPI SS1 cam. But didn’t mention anything about fuel rails or oil pump being required or good practice for 1300cc injectors.

Originally Posted by RobZL1

I'm curious about the timing chain. Never heard that one. I run a C5R Katech/iwis.

I run a Melling pump, too, but it's been ported, coated, blueprinted. I wouldn't run one out of the box, though.

You’ve always helped me. When running 1300cc injectors. Is an upgraded oil pump / upgraded fuel rails recommended?

Originally Posted by '10CamaroDude

No, it was copy a while ago, edit, and paste. I could have said that all, but I already
have an article saved with all that information. I keep a lot of reference materials on
cars I have owned, or currently own. I work in a performance shop, we need to have
it.

I thoroughly appreciate the long, but informative information. I do know it doesn’t keep the coolant temps “lower” per say. Just with the ambient temperature here where I am. It’s HOT during summer. I thought a lower opening temp t-stat would help open sooner, especially with being tuned for it. And help keep temps down for longer or help regulate it better. Is that an incorrect assumption?

['10CamaroDude]

An engine at 185° can run more timing advance safely than one running at 205° so tuning, along
with a low temp thermostat, can make some significant gains. So if you're using a handheld
programmer, chip or custom tune then a lower temp thermostat may help. I am sure that
everyone has noticed timing pulls with a hot motor/intake.

Running an engine cooler has been a thing for high performance since the early days of hot
rodding, ask your dad or grandfather. Those guys were pulling their thermostats out or drilling holes
in them because they knew they could run more timing by doing so. I used to drill mine back in
the 80s. Just a 1/8th hole in the collar, made a huge difference. Sucked in winter.

Also, If the engine does not reach a high enough temp for the computer to leave warm-up
mode then fuel economy will drop dramatically. If you are going to run E85, you won't need
the lower T-stat for the aggressive timing, it's 105 octane fuel.

As I said, the other issue is oil temps, it won't be hot enough to burn off moisture and other
contaminants in the oil.


If you're not doing it for performance, then there's really no reason to go with
a lower temp T-stat. It gets into the 100 degrees here in SW PA at times in
the summer, and I have always run stock T-stats.

If it makes you feel comfortable, then do it. It's really not necessary for daily
driving.

[RobZL1]

Originally Posted by Astatenate

Ok sounds good. I’ll definitely stick with 1300cc injectors to be safe and not waste $ having to order them later bc my fuel is tapped out on 1000’s!



I didn’t ignore your post (not sure if this was in regards to me) , but I Quoted your post and asked if anyone had personal experience with t-stat causing issues. Since you didn’t have personal problems / experience with it. My tuner also mentioned upgrading to a c5r chain when I do the GPI SS1 cam. But didn’t mention anything about fuel rails or oil pump being required or good practice for 1300cc injectors.



You’ve always helped me. When running 1300cc injectors. Is an upgraded oil pump / upgraded fuel rails recommended?




I thoroughly appreciate the long, but informative information. I do know it doesn’t keep the coolant temps “lower” per say. Just with the ambient temperature here where I am. It’s HOT during summer. I thought a lower opening temp t-stat would help open sooner, especially with being tuned for it. And help keep temps down for longer or help regulate it better. Is that an incorrect assumption?

The oil pump is subjective, and not tied to injector selection in any way. If you have good oil pressure already and low miles on your car, there's no real need to replace it in my opinion. That said, I replaced mine for peace of mind, and because I was already in there. The stock pump is fine, but I went with a Melling because of its better performance at high rpm. I bought a 10355 from Precision Pumps, because out of the box the Melling pumps have been known to have issues. Precision blueprints them by selecting parts from 10 units, porting the bodies, cleaning up the relief valve, and cleaning up and coating the gears.

I think the stock rails support a lot of hp. I believe Dave Steck had some good data on this at one point.

[Astatenate]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

The oil pump is subjective, and not tied to injector selection in any way. If you have good oil pressure already and low miles on your car, there's no real need to replace it in my opinion. That said, I replaced mine for peace of mind, and because I was already in there. The stock pump is fine, but I went with a Melling because of its better performance at high rpm. I bought a 10355 from Precision Pumps, because out of the box the Melling pumps have been known to have issues. Precision blueprints them by selecting parts from 10 units, porting the bodies, cleaning up the relief valve, and cleaning up and coating the gears.

I think the stock rails support a lot of hp. I believe Dave Steck had some good data on this at one point.

Okay sounds good! I planned on doing timing chain w/ a C5R when I do SS1 GPI cam just since I'd be in there already. Oil pump and fuel rails I had no plans of doing unless needed. Low mileage 40k currently and no issues with oil pressure. So cool. I'll stick with just timing chain w/ cam install.

Originally Posted by '10CamaroDude

An engine at 185° can run more timing advance safely than one running at 205° so tuning, along
with a low temp thermostat, can make some significant gains. So if you're using a handheld
programmer, chip or custom tune then a lower temp thermostat may help. I am sure that
everyone has noticed timing pulls with a hot motor/intake.

Running an engine cooler has been a thing for high performance since the early days of hot
rodding, ask your dad or grandfather. Those guys were pulling their thermostats out or drilling holes
in them because they knew they could run more timing by doing so. I used to drill mine back in
the 80s. Just a 1/8th hole in the collar, made a huge difference. Sucked in winter.

Also, If the engine does not reach a high enough temp for the computer to leave warm-up
mode then fuel economy will drop dramatically. If you are going to run E85, you won't need
the lower T-stat for the aggressive timing, it's 105 octane fuel.

As I said, the other issue is oil temps, it won't be hot enough to burn off moisture and other
contaminants in the oil.


If you're not doing it for performance, then there's really no reason to go with
a lower temp T-stat. It gets into the 100 degrees here in SW PA at times in
the summer, and I have always run stock T-stats.

If it makes you feel comfortable, then do it. It's really not necessary for daily
driving.

Sounds good, guess with running e85 it'll be kind of pointless since it burns cooler, I won't be hot lapping or really beating on her. Mainly go to the strip a few times and runs with friends on the interstate from time to time. So I'll stick with stock t-stat for now. Thanks!