[Number 3]

Originally Posted by foto1LE

The only advertising I see for Camaros is literally the on-track product that is the ZL1 1LE in the NASCAR Cup Series and the SS in the Xfinity series. No commercials. No print ads. Nothing. This is why Ford will keep selling and producing Mustangs and the Camaro has a high chance of dying in the next 2-3 years.

So where are the Mustang commercials?

I don't recall one since the microphone commercial years ago, and that wasn't even about the car. It just had the car in it.

It's not the commercials.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Number 3

So where are the Mustang commercials?

I don't recall one since the microphone commercial years ago, and that wasn't even about the car. It just had the car in it.

It's not the commercials.

He didn't say "commercials", he said "No commercials. No print ads. Nothing." Focus on that last one instead... NOTHING.

Ford is offering $1250 cash back plus a whole litany of other cash incentives. Farm Bureau, Special Package, First Responder, College Sudent, Military Appreciation... Where are all of these discounts from GM?

Because Ford is offering these things, enthusiasts and such pass that along because A) they do like the Mustang and B) they know that it's a way to own one for far less than typical.

GM isn't having any "sales" of any kind. When I bought my Silverado, I got three or four different incentives that I qualified for and stacked them together. I got only the one cash back item on my Camaro ($1500).

The trucks don't sell without massive incentives because they're too overpriced - just like the Camaro's and all of its competitors. The difference is that the trucks are the bread and butter of GM's lineup and where they make their money. So it's always "truck month" with some significant discounts going on, yet GM still says that they amount to their biggest profits.

Fact - cars are ridiculously overpriced. Fact - discounts are needed to move cars off of the dealer lots in the quantities necessary to make money. Fact - GM isn't offering discounts on the Camaro's. Fact - GM isn't putting the Camaro into the hands of enthusiasts, magazines, and influencers to encourage them to write about them because (Fact) they want the press for the Corvette.

Even at its so-called loss-leading price, the Corvette is what GM wants to sell so they creep the price up. If the Camaro starts taking customers away from it now, how many will they lose when the price increases?

There's a lot of griping about how bad the visibility is in the Camaro and that being a major contributor to why they aren't selling. That's a load of garbage. The C8 has the absolute worst blind spots of any car ever driven, yet it's still selling. Why? Because GM is making damned sure that the influencers get to drive it and brag about the performance (even while complaining about the visibility in the same article).

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by ember1205

He didn't say "commercials", he said "No commercials. No print ads. Nothing." Focus on that last one instead... NOTHING.

Ford is offering $1250 cash back plus a whole litany of other cash incentives. Farm Bureau, Special Package, First Responder, College Sudent, Military Appreciation... Where are all of these discounts from GM?

Because Ford is offering these things, enthusiasts and such pass that along because A) they do like the Mustang and B) they know that it's a way to own one for far less than typical.

GM isn't having any "sales" of any kind. When I bought my Silverado, I got three or four different incentives that I qualified for and stacked them together. I got only the one cash back item on my Camaro ($1500).

The trucks don't sell without massive incentives because they're too overpriced - just like the Camaro's and all of its competitors. The difference is that the trucks are the bread and butter of GM's lineup and where they make their money. So it's always "truck month" with some significant discounts going on, yet GM still says that they amount to their biggest profits.

Fact - cars are ridiculously overpriced. Fact - discounts are needed to move cars off of the dealer lots in the quantities necessary to make money. Fact - GM isn't offering discounts on the Camaro's. Fact - GM isn't putting the Camaro into the hands of enthusiasts, magazines, and influencers to encourage them to write about them because (Fact) they want the press for the Corvette.

Even at its so-called loss-leading price, the Corvette is what GM wants to sell so they creep the price up. If the Camaro starts taking customers away from it now, how many will they lose when the price increases?

There's a lot of griping about how bad the visibility is in the Camaro and that being a major contributor to why they aren't selling. That's a load of garbage. The C8 has the absolute worst blind spots of any car ever driven, yet it's still selling. Why? Because GM is making damned sure that the influencers get to drive it and brag about the performance (even while complaining about the visibility in the same article).

All excellent points. Long story short: I had ordered a 2020 back in November and it arrived at the dealer in early Feb. They wouldn’t budge a penny off sticker even though my Uncle (a mechanic) was a long time parts customer and bought his 2013 C6 427 convertible there, and my Mom bought her 2016 C7 Stingray w/Z51 package there. Same salesman. No discount.

I ended up buying a brand new ‘19 shipped into Cleveland from a dealer in Missouri from another dealer in town. It was still like pulling teeth to get a decent price I was happy with. Took two weeks of negotiating but we got it.

In the end I’m still extremely happy, and the car I ordered (only difference is I had ordered satin steel metallic and no Navi, and mine is shadow gray metallic with Navi) is still sitting at the other dealer 4 months later. Let ‘em choke on it.

[AZCamaroFan]

Discounts! Volume!

uhhh do you remember pre-bailout GM ?

again we know this will never sink in, BUT the mustang has it's core audience, it's sales have not gone up as Camaro's have gone down and they don't advertise it anymore than GM advertises the camaro.

Dodge is pushing a car who's platform was paid for by a completely different company 20 years ago . Hell no wonder they can afford to advertise it.
Cars are not rediculously overpriced. TRUCKS ARE. Do you realize 20 years ago GM was making about 1K on a Camaro priced in the low 20s? How much do you think they are making now, factoring in inflation and a world class chassis on one in the low 30s?

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

Discounts! Volume!

uhhh do you remember pre-bailout GM ?

again we know this will never sink in, BUT the mustang has it's core audience, it's sales have not gone up as Camaro's have gone down and they don't advertise it anymore than GM advertises the camaro.

Dodge is pushing a car who's platform was paid for by a completely different company 20 years ago . Hell no wonder they can afford to advertise it.
Cars are not rediculously overpriced. TRUCKS ARE. Do you realize 20 years ago GM was making about 1K on a Camaro priced in the low 20s? How much do you think they are making now, factoring in inflation and a world class chassis on one in the low 30s?

They’re still making $6-10k on ever Camaro they sell. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

They were making FAR more than $1k on a 1999 F-body in the low $20k range. Those cars didn’t cost them more than $15k to build. Parts, labor, all in.

Modern technology and production techniques probably dropped the cost to build one today. Sat nav option stickers for $495 right? If you knew what the markup on electronics is you’d faint. That satnav system probably costs GM no more than $100 all in, parts and labor, per car.

They’ve eliminated man hour labor on 3/4 of the body/chassis assembly and welding from 1999.

Yeah the 6th gen Camaro costs GM a LOT less than they sticker it for. Huge profit margins on these cars.And don’t let a salesman tell you anything else. They’re all liars anyway.

[He11bent]

Wow; a lot of comments and opinions.



Id like to see a breakdown of what models Camaro are selling compared to others. it would be great to Compare that with the Mustang and Challenger.



Seems the sales dipped with the refresh, but id like to see some real numbers. i know a lot of us have opinions about the refresh but with this change, the SS front end and the ZL1 front end maintained the aggressive look that brought the camaro back, while the others have more of a grimace...almost a Mazda smile...but not that bad, lol.



In general, i think they sell more of the smaller engine cars and if GM is losing that segment of the market because Ford and Dodge maintain the appearance of their cars, it would lie squarely on the redesign.


thoughts?

[delthawk5]

Originally Posted by He11bent

Wow; a lot of comments and opinions.



Id like to see a breakdown of what models Camaro are selling compared to others. it would be great to Compare that with the Mustang and Challenger.



Seems the sales dipped with the refresh, but id like to see some real numbers. i know a lot of us have opinions about the refresh but with this change, the SS front end and the ZL1 front end maintained the aggressive look that brought the camaro back, while the others have more of a grimace...almost a Mazda smile...but not that bad, lol.



In general, i think they sell more of the smaller engine cars and if GM is losing that segment of the market because Ford and Dodge maintain the appearance of their cars, it would lie squarely on the redesign.


thoughts?

Ford sells A LOT, and I mean, A LOT of Ecoboost/V6 Mustangs. For every Mustang GT I see driving around here in Florida, I see 2 or 3 base model stangs on the street. I can't say the same for Camaros.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

Cars are not rediculously overpriced. TRUCKS ARE. Do you realize 20 years ago GM was making about 1K on a Camaro priced in the low 20s? How much do you think they are making now, factoring in inflation and a world class chassis on one in the low 30s?

Well, I did a little research and calculations. A 2000 Camaro Z28 Coupe has an MSRP of about $32k in 2020 dollars. A 2020 Camaro 1SS Coupe has an MSRP of $37k. A US$5k increase or 16%. So yeah, it has definitely gone up, but I wouldn't classify it as ridiculous, especially seeing how the 4th Gen Camaro performed compared to other cars at the time and how the 6th Gen Camaro performs relatively to modern sports cars.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

They’re still making $6-10k on ever Camaro they sell. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

They were making FAR more than $1k on a 1999 F-body in the low $20k range. Those cars didn’t cost them more than $15k to build. Parts, labor, all in.

Modern technology and production techniques probably dropped the cost to build one today. Sat nav option stickers for $495 right? If you knew what the markup on electronics is you’d faint. That satnav system probably costs GM no more than $100 all in, parts and labor, per car.

They’ve eliminated man hour labor on 3/4 of the body/chassis assembly and welding from 1999.

Yeah the 6th gen Camaro costs GM a LOT less than they sticker it for. Huge profit margins on these cars.And don’t let a salesman tell you anything else. They’re all liars anyway.

Given your attitude towards the dealers, I actually wouldn't be too surprised that they aren't willing to work with you. Be firm but don't be too aggressive, definitely don't walk in and act like they are all criminals, no one likes it when you treat them that way. I am assuming you are given your posts, correct me if I am wrong.

Or buy a lightly used car. Let the sucker before you deal with the profit and all that.

Sent from toaster or something

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Well, I did a little research and calculations. A 2000 Camaro Z28 Coupe has an MSRP of about $32k in 2020 dollars. A 2020 Camaro 1SS Coupe has an MSRP of $37k. A US$5k increase or 16%. So yeah, it has definitely gone up, but I wouldn't classify it as ridiculous, especially seeing how the 4th Gen Camaro performed compared to other cars at the time and how the 6th Gen Camaro performs relatively to modern sports cars.



Given your attitude towards the dealers, I actually wouldn't be too surprised that they aren't willing to work with you. Be firm but don't be too aggressive, definitely don't walk in and act like they are all criminals, no one likes it when you treat them that way. I am assuming you are given your posts, correct me if I am wrong.

Or buy a lightly used car. Let the sucker before you deal with the profit and all that.

Sent from toaster or something

This wasn’t the first new car I’ve purchased in my life. It’s the 4th. And I learned how to negotiate from my stepdad.

Don’t kid yourself. Every salesman, no matter now nice or his long you’ve known them, are there to make as much money as they can. Buying a car must be done with your head, not your heart, or you’ll be ripped off.

I make no apologies for what i said. Any car salesman deep down inside where they will never admit knows I’m right.

You’re free to do things your way, it’s a free country. I do them mine.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

This wasn’t the first new car I’ve purchased in my life. It’s the 4th. And I learned how to negotiate from my stepdad.

Don’t kid yourself. Every salesman, no matter now nice or his long you’ve known them, are there to make as much money as they can. Buying a car must be done with your head, not your heart, or you’ll be ripped off.

I make no apologies for what i said. Any car salesman deep down inside where they will never admit knows I’m right.

Absolutely. All business exist for profit, and all employees what to get the most money for the least effort - that's called margin.

Still, you can't leave emotion completely out of it or you'll never make any sort of connection with a salesperson. My current Camaro purchase was a FIASCO right from the start. My initial inquiry was met with an ignorant, flippant, ill-thought-out response that grated on my nerves badly. I wrote an email to the GM of the dealership and respectfully told him that I was disappointed in how my inquiry was handled and gently conveyed actual facts from the couple of emails. I received a response back that was short, but friendly. It included an apology and a sincere expression of willingness on their part to still win my business if I were interested.

I talked with the Sales Manager the next day and he acknowledged that it was handled extremely poorly and that car dealers were being given a wake-up call on how to deal digitally, including an admission that six months earlier he would have essentially laughed at what I told him and wouldn't have believed it.

The car that was sitting on their lot for nine months is now in my garage. It took some effort on my part, and on theirs. But a calm and respectful approach on my part prevented any defenses from going up on their side and we completed the deal.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

This wasn’t the first new car I’ve purchased in my life. It’s the 4th. And I learned how to negotiate from my stepdad.



Don’t kid yourself. Every salesman, no matter now nice or his long you’ve known them, are there to make as much money as they can. Buying a car must be done with your head, not your heart, or you’ll be ripped off.



I make no apologies for what i said. Any car salesman deep down inside where they will never admit knows I’m right.

I am not saying that you should treat your salesman as best bud or something like that, but I also wouldn't do the polar opposite. There are people who go in dealers and act very aggressively. I do agree that giving no discounts is dumb(for a Chevy; try a Japanese brand if you really want difficult negotiations), but that's how everyone sells things, if you don't need to get rid of it now, why lower the price? Could be a sucker that's willing to pay that.

And making as much as we can... That's everyone's goal in life, LOL. Pot calling the kettle black.

I worked at retails before for a small shop, so I know kind of what it's like. We do discounts if you ask but obviously I am limited by how much my boss allows me. That said, I don't live on commissions so it's not exactly the same. At the end, everyone has to keep the lights on.

As for my experience, it's a very special case so there is not much value. I walked away from the dealer, ended up with my C7 only to lose it not even 2 weeks later to a flood, so I contacted the dealer with the Camaro and got a deal going.

Sent from toaster or something

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I am not saying that you should treat your salesman as best bud or something like that

Ah but salesmen come right at you as soon as you get out of your car acting just like that. So you have to have your guard up and temper it right from the start. The buyer must own the conversation. Say little if anything at all and come prepared with an offer below what the lowest you’re willing to pay, out the door including all fees. And state that in writing.

Don’t smile, don’t engage in light hearted conversation. It’s strictly a business transaction. I drove a black 6 speed they had on the lot, and of course the salesman tried to be my buddy about how it drove and how I must have lived it. I had none of it.

Gotta play poker like you just put the deed to your house down when buying a car. It’s a lot of your heart earned money. It’s worth it to be cold and callous.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Well, I did a little research and calculations. A 2000 Camaro Z28 Coupe has an MSRP of about $32k in 2020 dollars. A 2020 Camaro 1SS Coupe has an MSRP of $37k. A US$5k increase or 16%. So yeah, it has definitely gone up, but I wouldn't classify it as ridiculous, especially seeing how the 4th Gen Camaro performed compared to other cars at the time and how the 6th Gen Camaro performs relatively to modern sports cars.

the current car also has IRS which the 4thgen did not have, much larger wheels and tires etc.

also , as to the other poster, it's very easy to research how much money GM makes per car. So posting whatever you want doesn't make it true.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Ah but salesmen come right at you as soon as you get out of your car acting just like that. So you have to have your guard up and temper it right from the start. The buyer must own the conversation. Say little if anything at all and come prepared with an offer below what the lowest you’re willing to pay, out the door including all fees. And state that in writing.

Don’t smile, don’t engage in light hearted conversation. It’s strictly a business transaction. I drove a black 6 speed they had on the lot, and of course the salesman tried to be my buddy about how it drove and how I must have lived it. I had none of it.

Gotta play poker like you just put the deed to your house down when buying a car. It’s a lot of your heart earned money. It’s worth it to be cold and callous.

I haven't had a sales person do a hard approach like that in years. If it's still happening in your neck of the woods, that's too bad. There's a reason that people are called "Used car salesman" when they're acting badly, but it's more historical than not, now.

Most of the sales people I have bought from in the last 20 years (most, not all) were much more laid back. I took test drives alone, and was asked a generic "what did you think?" upon returning to the lot. In the last 3-4 transactions I've done, I asked to speak directly to the Sales Manager and got The Heisman and was diverted to a sales person. Mostly, though, it was AFTER I had explained to the Sales Manager that I was ready to buy and there was no "selling" to be done. I do my research online, test drive from dealerships where I already have a great relationship or have no intention of buying (not both), and am then ready to make my deal.

I don't negotiate, per se. I ask for best and final up front. Explain that it's a car and a "nice to have", not a need to have. I'm interested in making a fair deal for both sides and am in communication with 2-3 other dealerships already as well (I always say this, even if I haven't approached those dealerships yet). That's it... Basically, I spin the "what's it going to take to get you to buy a car today" around to "what are you willing to do to sell a car today?"

I also provide the fact that my credit score is high, my debt load is low, and I am open to financing with great rates (in other words, I let them know up front that the deal won't fall apart in the finance office because I can't get a loan).

I talked with three different dealerships when I bought my Camaro. My preferred dealership has zero stock and wasn't able to get any. The next physically close dealership had one car that I could have tolerated option-wise, but I would have wanted a significant deal on it. They gave a so-so discount. The third dealership had the car that I bought. It wasn't perfect, but pretty close, in terms of options. They gave a more reasonable discount and the car was optioned more to my liking. They also treated me like a person, even after a horrid start to the process. But, I treated them that way, too. They -earned- my business.