Warranty Officially Voided

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

I think I read on here somewhere that the Moss-Magnuson act has never been used successfully in court. Not sure of the validity, but something to think about.

[Rip]

Originally Posted by Russell James

That is all opinion. The actual law is:

"The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage."

If your car is modified, demand the manufacturer or dealer shows that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs. That is exactly what the laws says. Not to mention it is common sense. If your modifications caused it - it's on you. If the manufacturer's defect caused it - it's on the factory warranty - by law.

Someone violates that law - contact the FTC with their names and all the facts.

Funny how no one on here ever listens.

[Rip]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Forget the FTC.

Read the actual law that everyone likes to quote:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht..._15_10_50.html

It states nowhere that a manufacturer must prove themselves in the right. It, instead, enforces that warrantors must explicitly state the terms of their warranty. Which GM does: any tampering or modification of their components "may" result in a void of your warranty (I paraphrased)

This is not unusual, which is why I just don't understand how there can be confusion here. Go buy a new computer, over-clock the CPU, and bring it back to them a month later saying it's broke....it doesn't work that way.

Furthermore, most of the protections and provisions afforded by the MM Act do not apply to limited warranties so long as it is disclosed as such. And guess what...it's a 5 year / 100,000 mile Limited Powertrain Warranty. The Act outlines what a "full warranty" is, and what is not...


Agreed. And agreed....your post was worthy of quoting.



A tune is not aftermarket equipment. It is tampering with the FACTORY equipment. And that is not "exactly what the law says"....but I left the link for you to read, I won't harp on it, here.

I wish this would stop....

What, exactly, does GM's warranty state?

Don't paraphrase, state what they do.

TIA

[Capthowdy]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Modded or not, GM put a faulty part in his car and it failed. If they can't stand behind their cars, I'd suggest buying from another car company.

how is it these TROLLS have a "banned " sign under their name but still can post here? or is that banned sign just another Little troll dig? Crawl back in your coyote cave Troll....

[Milk 1027]

Originally Posted by Capthowdy

how is it these TROLLS have a "banned " sign under their name but still can post here? or is that banned sign just another Little troll dig? Crawl back in your coyote cave Troll....

read a little further down, he's gone...

[bob vogel]

Originally Posted by cab2g

Well You can probably get it done for cheaper @ another shop, since your warranty is already voided. Get an estimate somewhere else. I know it's a huge chunk of change, but I got a lawyer for a $3600 dispute, the lawyer ended up costing me $2400 and the dispute got settled for $250 less. So I ended up paying much more. There is no guarantee that the lawyer will actually get GM to do any work. But you may be able to go to small claims court and represent yourself. At least that way at most you'll only be out a couple hundred dollars in court fees.

you have a much better chance of getting things to go your way by going to small claims.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Russell James

That is all opinion. The actual law is:

"The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage."

If your car is modified, demand the manufacturer or dealer shows that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs. That is exactly what the laws says. Not to mention it is common sense. If your modifications caused it - it's on you. If the manufacturer's defect caused it - it's on the factory warranty - by law.

Someone violates that law - contact the FTC with their names and all the facts.

And your interpretation of what you are quoting is also opinion, I at least hope you realize that.

As stated so many times, the powertrain is a subsystem, not a grouping of parts. You are all "interpretting the law" to mean what you want. That you can change the operating conditions of the subsystem to suit yourself and then have your warranty covered anyway because it just seems fair.

Russell James, you can try to minimize my posts all you want by calling them opinion. What I am giving you is how GM interprets the law you all keep quoting as if somehow this were fact. If it were fact and this simple as you allllllll seem to want it to be, Mossman wouldn't have posted, he would have had his car repaired. So, yes it may be MY opinion and I think I stated that (I even think I bolded it), it is the interpretation GM is using.

GM does not want to screw anybody. GM offers an incredible powertrain warranty, 5 years 100,000 miles. And the warranty is quite clear:

AN IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT ALTERATIONS AND WARRANTIES
Installations or alterations to the original GM-equipped vehicle (or chassis) are not covered by the General Motors New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The special body company, assembler, equipment installer or upfitter is solely responsible for warranties on the body or equipment and any alterations (or any effect of the alterations) to any of the parts, components, systems or assemblies installed by GM. General Motors is not responsible for the safety or quality of design features, materials or workmanship of any alterations by such suppliers.

But again if you continue to look at the powertrain as a "part" and the computer program as another "part" you will always see it in terms of MM, that GM must show that one "part" impacted the other "part". But when you look at it as a complete subsystem, which GM does, and that is how GM waranties it, as a subsystem, then you will understand the positiong that the OEMs (not just GM) take on recalibration of powertrain contollers.

Again Russell James, most of what was in my post was not opinion. The Ducati conditions are fact, the GMPP calibration on my Sky clearly being stated by GM as "maintains GM powertrain warranty" is also fact. So I just want to be clear on those points.

[Mark Myles]

af·ter·mar·ket

   /ˈæftərˌmɑrkɪt, ˈɑf-/ Show Spelled[af-ter-mahr-kit, ahf-] Show IPA
–noun 1. the market for replacement parts, accessories, and equipment for the care or enhancement of the original product, especially an automobile, after its sale to the consumer: The company holds a large share in the automotive radio aftermarket.

2. any additional market created by a product after the primary market: Television is the perfect aftermarket for old movies.

3. Stock Exchange . secondary market.


e·quip·ment

   /ɪˈkwɪpmənt/ Show Spelled[ih-kwip-muhnt] Show IPA
–noun 1. anything kept, furnished, or provided for a specific purpose.

2. the act of equipping a person or thing.

3. the state of being equipped.

4. the personal knowledge and skill required for a task, occupation, etc.: He has the necessary equipment for law.

5. the rolling stock of a railroad.


M

[themossman]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And your interpretation of what you are quoting is also opinion, I at least hope you realize that.

As stated so many times, the powertrain is a subsystem, not a grouping of parts. You are all "interpretting the law" to mean what you want. That you can change the operating conditions of the subsystem to suit yourself and then have your warranty covered anyway because it just seems fair.

Russell James, you can try to minimize my posts all you want by calling them opinion. What I am giving you is how GM interprets the law you all keep quoting as if somehow this were fact. If it were fact and this simple as you allllllll seem to want it to be, Mossman wouldn't have posted, he would have had his car repaired. So, yes it may be MY opinion and I think I stated that (I even think I bolded it), it is the interpretation GM is using.

GM does not want to screw anybody. GM offers an incredible powertrain warranty, 5 years 100,000 miles. And the warranty is quite clear:

AN IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT ALTERATIONS AND WARRANTIES
Installations or alterations to the original GM-equipped vehicle (or chassis) are not covered by the General Motors New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The special body company, assembler, equipment installer or upfitter is solely responsible for warranties on the body or equipment and any alterations (or any effect of the alterations) to any of the parts, components, systems or assemblies installed by GM. General Motors is not responsible for the safety or quality of design features, materials or workmanship of any alterations by such suppliers.

But again if you continue to look at the powertrain as a "part" and the computer program as another "part" you will always see it in terms of MM, that GM must show that one "part" impacted the other "part". But when you look at it as a complete subsystem, which GM does, and that is how GM waranties it, as a subsystem, then you will understand the positiong that the OEMs (not just GM) take on recalibration of powertrain contollers.

Again Russell James, most of what was in my post was not opinion. The Ducati conditions are fact, the GMPP calibration on my Sky clearly being stated by GM as "maintains GM powertrain warranty" is also fact. So I just want to be clear on those points.

I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful posts and I appreciate your perspective. I understand that desire to paint things as black and white when related to warranty issues...it's a financial decision (as it should be). The reality however is black and white financial decisions do not always translate well in application when dealing with consumers...or the law.

Additionally, we've seen some others that have had luck on their side when dealing with warranty related issues on a heavily modified car. The reason that I am SEVERELY disappointed is the wholesale 'blocking' of my powertrain warranty without any consideration of facts. If the line is black and white...where is it?

I walked into this providing any and all information so that a REASONABLE decision could be made. That did not occur. A decision was made at the regional level without considering all the facts. That is very disappointing and, in my opinion, shows a lack of true customer commitment. This was my first opportunity to deal with a post sale support issue...color me unimpressed...not with the decision so much as with the manner in which it was handled.

[Synergy5/2SS]

The dealer who does not report tampered emission related controls to the carmaker, risks a huge EPA fine if found out. MM does not cover "Tampering". Best to pay for the repair than waking up the Giant EPA. Your state also has tampering laws that can bite you.

[Darth_Emma]

I look at the warranty as something to discourage you from having fun with your car.

Congratulations! You are FREE of the warranty cloud hanging over your head and you are at liberty to mod YOUR car as YOU want to!!!

Woo hoo!

[fastball]

Seeing how people here are interpreting Magnusson-Moss both ways (factory MUST prove your mods damaged their part and factory needs not to), reminds me of why there are lawyers and judges in America.

This is definitely a case that could stand a true test of the M-M act.

My suggestion? If you have the money, time, and determination, retain a VERY GOOD, EXPERIENCED trial lawyer. Try to find one of the best in your city or state. One with extensive experience arguing in front of appeals courts and your state supreme court.

Take the case as far as you can take it. Appeal every motion a judge denies you to the next level. Fight every motion GM files against you. File motion upon motion against GM.

It may take 2 years but perhaps it would make it to US Supreme and we will all get a better understanding of the M-M act. Because that's what it's going to take to clarify it.

[Badger]

Originally Posted by themossman

I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful posts and I appreciate your perspective. I understand that desire to paint things as black and white when related to warranty issues...it's a financial decision (as it should be). The reality however is black and white financial decisions do not always translate well in application when dealing with consumers...or the law.

Additionally, we've seen some others that have had luck on their side when dealing with warranty related issues on a heavily modified car. The reason that I am SEVERELY disappointed is the wholesale 'blocking' of my powertrain warranty without any consideration of facts. If the line is black and white...where is it?

I walked into this providing any and all information so that a REASONABLE decision could be made. That did not occur. A decision was made at the regional level without considering all the facts. That is very disappointing and, in my opinion, shows a lack of true customer commitment. This was my first opportunity to deal with a post sale support issue...color me unimpressed...not with the decision so much as with the manner in which it was handled.

Welcome to the "Red Flagged" Club

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by fastball

Seeing how people here are interpreting Magnusson-Moss both ways (factory MUST prove your mods damaged their part and factory needs not to), reminds me of why there are lawyers and judges in America.

This is definitely a case that could stand a true test of the M-M act.

My suggestion? If you have the money, time, and determination, retain a VERY GOOD, EXPERIENCED trial lawyer. Try to find one of the best in your city or state. One with extensive experience arguing in front of appeals courts and your state supreme court.

Take the case as far as you can take it. Appeal every motion a judge denies you to the next level. Fight every motion GM files against you. File motion upon motion against GM.

It may take 2 years but perhaps it would make it to US Supreme and we will all get a better understanding of the M-M act. Because that's what it's going to take to clarify it.

LOL ... Do you care to make the first donation of about $1,000,000.00

The MM doesn't apply because it is a Limited Warranty with terms ...