Al O. believes ZL1 still faster

[Happy_Dan]

Originally Posted by spikess581

Al O. just likes to hear himself talk. There is no action behind it. If there was these vert tops would be fixed by now.

Are you having a problem with your vert top?

[fbodfather]

something to think about.....

I found out years and years ago that when you post something on the 'net - it NEVER goes away. When you make statements, there are those who will hunt your words down and try to beat you over the head with them. And if the words don't quite fit the case - they'll twist them in an effort to make them fit the 'purpose' or 'agenda' - (more about that 'agenda' thing in a minute.....)

Now - I happen to know and work with Al Oppenheiser.

I've worked with many great engineers over the past 35 years......and I can honestly say that I've never worked with a more 'down-to-earth' - 'passionate' - 'driven' - 'team-driven' fellow ever.....

Do you honestly think he'd be foolish enough to post something like he has if he didn't have reason to believe what he's posting?

Do you not think he has thought this through and understands that IF he's wrong he loses credibility?

Has it occurred to some that they really need to think before they type? I'm here to tell you that I've NEVER seen a Chief Engineer take EVERY warranty claim to heart like Al does. I've witnessed his weekly warranty reviews.......and while we strive to have zero warranty claims and a perfect car, we also know that pulling 18,000 parts together - -and putting out a performance car -- is going to have a share of problems. And the way to fix any problem is to find root cause - and fix it thru the cooperation of engineers and suppliers and manufacturing.....and we're hell-bent on 'gettin' it done'........


Now -

I've been watching these threads and I'm witnessing a couple of things:

-- there are those who post - but they don't tell you what they drive - or perhaps where they live - no - rather, they're 'clever' - and that makes me question their 'agenda' -

-- there are those who are obviously Mustang Fans. That's fine. Let's face it -- do you really believe that the horsepower wars would be on had the Camaro and Challenger not come back to market? If you believe that Ford would be producing something as powerful as the GT-500 - you're simply mistaken......so my point is this: Competition is A GOOD THING - because YOU THE CONSUMER WIN! But please don't come over here (a site with 'camaro' in the name) and use the word 'Fanboy' - it's insulting. If you want to insult someone - perhaps you might find another site without the word 'Camaro' in it........

-- there are those who are proclaiming 'this' and 'that' - and I seriously doubt that any of these people have ever engineered a car or truck. Further - I can't imagine how anyone can make proclamations if they haven't driven the cars at this point...... (...and before someone tries to respond to the last few words - you may be surprised at what 'simulations' can be done these days within the walls of the manufacturer - )


So - perhaps a few people need to learn a little bit about 'respect' -- and 'civility' -

And to our Camaro Faithful - I hope that any of you who might journey over to a Mustang site will exhibit behavior that's thoughtful and courteous.

[tmandoug1]

[piepouli]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

something to think about.....

I found out years and years ago that when you post something on the 'net - it NEVER goes away. When you make statements, there are those who will hunt your words down and try to beat you over the head with them. And if the words don't quite fit the case - they'll twist them in an effort to make them fit the 'purpose' or 'agenda' - (more about that 'agenda' thing in a minute.....)

Now - I happen to know Al Oppenheiser. I've worked with many great engineers over the past 35 years......and I can honestly say that I've never worked with a more 'down-to-earth' - 'passionate' - 'driven' - 'team-driven' fellow ever..... Do you honestly think he'd be foolish enough to post something like he has if he didn't have reason to believe what he's posting? Do you not think he has thought this through and understands that IF he's wrong he loses credibility? Has it occurred to some that they really need to think before they type? I'm here to tell you that I've NEVER seen a Chief Engineer take EVERY warranty claim to heart like Al does. I've witnessed his weekly warranty reviews.......and while we strive to have zero warranty claims and a perfect car, we also know that pulling 18,000 parts together - -and putting out a performance car -- is going to have a share of problems. And the way to fix any problem is to find root cause - and fix it thru the cooperation of engineers and suppliers and manufacturing.....and we're hell-bent on 'gettin' it done'........


Now -

I've been watching these threads and I'm witnessing a couple of things:

-- there are those who post - but they don't tell you what they drive - or perhaps where they live - no - rather, they're 'clever' - and that makes me question their 'agenda' -

-- there are those who are obviously Mustang Fans. That's fine. Let's face it -- do you really believe that the horsepower wars would be on had the Camaro and Challenger not come back to market? If you believe that Ford would be producing something as powerful as the GT-500 - you're simply mistaken......so my point is this: Competition is A GOOD THING - because YOU THE CONSUMER WIN!

-- there are those who are proclaiming 'this' and 'that' - and I seriously doubt that any of these people have ever engineered a car or truck. Further - I can't imagine how anyone can make proclamations if they haven't driven the cars at this point...... (...and before someone tries to respond to the last few words - you may be surprised at what 'simulations' can be done these days - )


So - perhaps a few people need to learn a little bit about 'respect' -- and 'civility' -

And to our Camaro Faithful - I hope that any of you who might journey over to a Mustang site will exhibit behavior that's thoughtful and courteous.

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

something to think about.....

I found out years and years ago that when you post something on the 'net - it NEVER goes away. When you make statements, there are those who will hunt your words down and try to beat you over the head with them. And if the words don't quite fit the case - they'll twist them in an effort to make them fit the 'purpose' or 'agenda' - (more about that 'agenda' thing in a minute.....)

Now - I happen to know and work with Al Oppenheiser.

I've worked with many great engineers over the past 35 years......and I can honestly say that I've never worked with a more 'down-to-earth' - 'passionate' - 'driven' - 'team-driven' fellow ever.....

Do you honestly think he'd be foolish enough to post something like he has if he didn't have reason to believe what he's posting?

Do you not think he has thought this through and understands that IF he's wrong he loses credibility?

Has it occurred to some that they really need to think before they type? I'm here to tell you that I've NEVER seen a Chief Engineer take EVERY warranty claim to heart like Al does. I've witnessed his weekly warranty reviews.......and while we strive to have zero warranty claims and a perfect car, we also know that pulling 18,000 parts together - -and putting out a performance car -- is going to have a share of problems. And the way to fix any problem is to find root cause - and fix it thru the cooperation of engineers and suppliers and manufacturing.....and we're hell-bent on 'gettin' it done'........


Now -

I've been watching these threads and I'm witnessing a couple of things:

-- there are those who post - but they don't tell you what they drive - or perhaps where they live - no - rather, they're 'clever' - and that makes me question their 'agenda' -

-- there are those who are obviously Mustang Fans. That's fine. Let's face it -- do you really believe that the horsepower wars would be on had the Camaro and Challenger not come back to market? If you believe that Ford would be producing something as powerful as the GT-500 - you're simply mistaken......so my point is this: Competition is A GOOD THING - because YOU THE CONSUMER WIN! But please don't come over here (a site with 'camaro' in the name) and use the word 'Fanboy' - it's insulting. If you want to insult someone - perhaps you might find another site without the word 'Camaro' in it........

-- there are those who are proclaiming 'this' and 'that' - and I seriously doubt that any of these people have ever engineered a car or truck. Further - I can't imagine how anyone can make proclamations if they haven't driven the cars at this point...... (...and before someone tries to respond to the last few words - you may be surprised at what 'simulations' can be done these days within the walls of the manufacturer - )


So - perhaps a few people need to learn a little bit about 'respect' -- and 'civility' -

And to our Camaro Faithful - I hope that any of you who might journey over to a Mustang site will exhibit behavior that's thoughtful and courteous.

Taking a part of what you just said about "agenda" what is your agenda and who are you directing this toward? Anyone in particular, or all Mustang owners on this site?

I'll agree that a simulation can determine a lot, but, you will NOT get the true answer unless both things being compared are side by side and being pushed to their full potential.

This is like comparing two great MMA fighters. I can download a Fight program now, enter fighter stats, and boom, I can get a winner that is computer generated. Does that mean it is completely true?

I am sure Al knows what he is talking about, however, as a representative of GM, he has a job to do. He certainly isn't going to say he is going to lose to the competition, now is he?

[GoldCartridgeGamer]

Well spoken fbodfather! :party0048:

[snapp32e]

Well said and so true. Regardless of what you currently drive, plan on driving or will never drive, the big 3 are the reason we have these cars today. Therefore you must pay respect to them all because one way or another they have all had their hand in creating your Mustang, Camaro or Challenger and making it the car it is today.

[chevy 3]

Hate to say it but we need ford as much as ford needs Chevy. It's the stay on top attitude that gets us where we are now. I for one love the rivalry between the two and can't wait to see what's next. One question- the zl1 is being sold as a factory race car is the gt500? Sorry if this is already stated.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

I've been watching these threads and I'm witnessing a couple of things:

-- there are those who post - but they don't tell you what they drive - or perhaps where they live - no - rather, they're 'clever' - and that makes me question their 'agenda' -

Originally Posted by Grabber

Taking a part of what you just said about "agenda" ... who are you directing this toward? Anyone in particular, or all Mustang owners on this site?

From fbodfather's statement, I think it's reasonable to infer that he's referring to those who may attempt to obscure their possible agendas by not listing specific vehicles that they drive and not listing specific cities where they reside, as those who may have 'clever' hidden 'agendas' that he questions.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by Grabber

Taking a part of what you just said about "agenda" what is your agenda and who are you directing this toward? Anyone in particular, or all Mustang owners on this site?

I'll agree that a simulation can determine a lot, but, you will NOT get the true answer unless both things being compared are side by side and being pushed to their full potential.

This is like comparing two great MMA fighters. I can download a Fight program now, enter fighter stats, and boom, I can get a winner that is computer generated. Does that mean it is completely true?

I am sure Al knows what he is talking about, however, as a representative of GM, he has a job to do. He certainly isn't going to say he is going to lose to the competition, now is he?

My agenda?

There are a few. The name "Camaro" means 'friend, pal or comrade' - and it bothers me (and many others) greatly that the internet allows people to type things that they would never say in person. This is a friendly site...but I see the behavior deteriorating quickly - and I think it's important to keep this place friendly. If some don't want it friendly, then perhaps there are other sites more suited to bad behavior.

I am reading things on this post that disrespect Al Oppenheiser - it's one thing to disagree - but go back and re-read some of the things people have posted. Thus, I felt compelled to defend him.

I'm also trying to make people stop and thinkfor a moment. Al is a brilliant engineer - and I can tell you that he's well aware of the consequences if he's wrong..... He does not say things without a lot of forethought - and I can assure you that this wasn't some 'publicity stunt'.... Much of what he's saying was shared with Journalists at a press event to answer questions that they raised.

You are absolutely correct in that the only way we're going to know the real performance of both cars is the day we put them on the SAME track with the SAME driver -
THAT SAID - I don't think that people on this site know what the engineering community is capable of in terms of simulation.

I'm trying to point out that if one isn't an automotive engineer, then perhaps one isn't an 'expert'

AND - I have great suspicion of people who post but will not disclose anything about themselves (such as what they drive and where they live...)

And - as I said - I do hope that Camaro Enthusiasts will not go to Mustang Sites and be disrespectful.

One moderator closed this thread and I asked that it be re-opened. I'm all for sharing thoughts - but I also detest bad behavior.

I hope you understand that it's not fun to post some of what I do -

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

My agenda?

There are a few. The name "Camaro" means 'friend, pal or comrade' - and it bothers me (and many others) greatly that the internet allows people to type things that they would never say in person.

I am reading things on this post that disrespect Al Oppenheiser - it's one thing to disagree - but read some of the things people post.

I'm also trying to make people stop and thinkfor a moment. Al is a brilliant engineer - and I can tell you that he's well aware of the consequences if he's wrong.....

You are absolutely correct in that the only way we're going to know the real performance of both cars is the day we put them on the SAME track with the SAME driver -
THAT SAID - I don't think that people on this site know what the engineering community is capable of in terms of simulation.

I'm trying to point out that if you aren't an automotive engineer, then perhaps you aren't an 'expert'

AND - I have great suspicion of people who post but will not disclose anything about themselves (such as what they drive and where they live...)

And - as I said - I do hope that Camaro Enthusiasts will not go to Mustang Sites and be disrespectful.

One moderator closed this thread and I asked that it be re-opened. I'm all for sharing thoughts - but I also detest bad behavior.

I hope you understand that it's not fun to post some of what I do -

I appreciate the response.

I have a lot of response for Al Oppenheiser and his work.

I just wanted to make sure that I was not one of the people that you were referring to with hidden Agenda's, and posting negatively toward cars.

I truly hope no matter who the victor is between the GT500 and ZL1, that the pony wars continue, and the two best Auto Makers (Ford AND GM) continue to rule the rest of them.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by Grabber

I appreciate the response.

I have a lot of response for Al Oppenheiser and his work.

I just wanted to make sure that I was not one of the people that you were referring to with hidden Agenda's, and posting negatively toward cars.

I truly hope no matter who the victor is between the GT500 and ZL1, that the pony wars continue, and the two best Auto Makers (Ford AND GM) continue to rule the rest of them.

No - I didn't have you in mind when I posted earlier.

I'm glad you understand (I also went back and re-edited my post as you were posting - so you may want to look at it again...)

And you are right -the pony wars are a good thing for everyone who loves performance! (and thank you for your kind remarks about the two best automakers - Ford and GM - we sure are trying!)

Now - let's go celebrate that this truly IS the golden age of automotive performance!

[snapp32e]

We shouldnt write Dodge off yet boys. I'm sure they have something on the drawing board and if 2 is good in this situation, 3 will be better.

[LOWDOWN]

It seems to me much of what "outsiders" are "suggesting", here and on threads similar to this one, are, as Scott states, "agenda-laden". Certainly based, at best, on opinion, and biased, no doubt.

I, for one, no longer want to be "drawn in" by these obviously incendiary comments with NO basis in FACT. So...

If unresponded to, these comments are at best a soliloquy and at worst a soapbox. Without an "audience", there'll be no "battle". Without a battle, they'll scurry off...

One undeniable FACT is, this "discussion" will rage on, regardless of track times or vehicle dynamics, for time in memoriam...if we let it...

My $.02...