Wear your seatbelt!

[RubyCamaro]

I once owned a beautiful Metalic blue Chrysler LeBaron Coupe Turbo. I was driving to work one morning doing about 55 in a 50 mph zone on a somewhat curvy 2 lane highway. I saw a pick up truck coming in the opposite direction & estimated that I would meet it at about the middle of an upcoming curve. I decided I should slow down some and started lightly braking. I felt the car get a little loose then it started doing 360 spins. There is no way of knowing exactly what happened to cause this. The road was dry & basicly smooth and the sholders of the road firm. Maybe a rapid deflation of a front tire or some sort of mechanical failure but we will never know. The next thing I knew a lady from a nearby house was touchig my hand & asking if I was alright. I told her to call the place I worked & my husband & gave her the numbers. Next an EMS worker arrived & said "good girl, you are alive because you were wearing your seatbelt. Not much was left of the car. The front end broke off & was wrapped around a utility pole burning. The passenger side door was opened & bend around to where the front of the car should have been. The hood, engine & various other car parts were scattered around the field where the rear of the car came to rest. Someone who recognized my lisence plate drove to where I worked & told them I was dead. Clearly the reports of my death were greatly exaggerated. I had relatively minor injuries by some miracle, a badly broken knee, and various cuts & briuses. This was way before the advent of many of our current additional safety components such as air bags, ABS, traction control & many crash safety improvements. I lived to raise my wonderful daughter, have and raise my wonderful son and to help many children in my position as a mental health therapist. I am very glad to be alive. I love my freedoms that were bought by the lives of many brave military personnel. But sometimes it is the role of our government to protect us in many ways such as ensuring food safety, regulating medicines/drugs, developing product safety standards and many similar examples. It is sad that the well intentioned thread started to encourage us to keep ourselved & others we care about safe was turned into something else. Now let us return to our regularly scheduled thread.

[strych9]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

Allowing children to be taken away by the Government is very serious. My parents (and others too of my generation) would be vilified as abusers by today's standards.

I rode around in the beds of pickups. I didn't wear a helmet or pads when I rode my bicycle and skateboard. I played pickup sports with other kids without pads and safety equipment. My parents let me play dodge ball. I turned out just fine. Would you consider my parents abusive? Should I have been taken from my parents because they didn't protect me?

Dude, your parents and any parent raising us 40-somethings didn't know any better back then. Hell, I used to sit on my dad's lap and steer the car in the city, @ 5 years old! He was drinking a beer and having a smoke at the same time! Nobody really calculated all those risks, as they do today.

With the advent of computer models and a greater ability to crunch numbers into something measurable, we now know how great a risk that behavior was. Do you have kids of your own? Do you lead by example?

If you don't, I guess you can wave your flag and do whatever you want, damn all consequences. If you do have kids, then you're an irresponsible parent if you don't wear your seatbelt to lead by example.

I turned out alive and well, too. That doesn't mean I need to tempt the odds to work against me. It isn't my driving I worry about; it's guys like my employee that thought, "It'll never happen to me."

[PQ]

Originally Posted by TAG UR IT

EXACTLY.

Roll your eyes at what I'm going to say here should you choose. But, don't ignore the fact that a situation like this could happen. Or, better that, that similar situations like this have happened before in the past and will happen in the future.

------------
Seat belts save lives. And sometimes, it's not all about YOU.

Doug, I never thought of it that far into it. I've worn my seatbelt ever since my best friend (Alabama State trooper) made me look at some AI pics in an attempt to get me to wear it. It worked.

But, even though I wore my seatbelt I always maintained that it shouldn't be forced upon me.

You have just changed my mind. I was never vocal about it and never really thought about it much until this post.

Nicely done.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

You are aware of what a DWI is, right?

And the last time I checked, this thread is about seat belt laws, not alcohol. That's probably the same reason why the gun stats were removed, because they have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Like I said earlier, if you want to debate the merits of gun control or alcohol laws, then start a new thread about those. Right now, we're talking about seat belts.

You're doing what's called a logical fallacy. You can't argue for the repeal of one law because another law doesn't exist. That's like saying we shouldn't devote an entire week of television to sharks because more humans die from electrocution. One has nothing to do with the other.

People can be killed from slipping on their front porch. Should we outlaw front porches?

People can be killed by falling space junk. Should we outlaw satellites?

People can be killed by getting hit in the head from a rock launched by a lawn mower. Should we outlaw all landscaping equipment?

See how ridiculous those arguments are? The same goes for your gun control and alcohol arguments. They have nothing to do with seat belts.

Here is the problem with this entire thread. People who believe seatbelts save lives think that they have to FORCE people to wear them through laws and fines, etc.

They make a great case for their side based on statistics and personal stories.

Here's the rub: if not wearing a seatbelt is so plainly obvious to the seatbelt law advocates a really DUMB idea, why are we not simply educating people and teaching them why they should wear the belts and getting them to do so voluntarily.

If you simply pass laws forbidding bad habits, you don't teach many people why they are bad in the first place, so they don't learn anything they can apply in other situations. You also generate animosity against the laws and some people who reject authority will disobey to spite the laws.

In other words, fewer laws and more educated people is the best solution.

[Godsplumber]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Here is the problem with this entire thread. People who believe seatbelts save lives think that they have to FORCE people to wear them through laws and fines, etc.




In other words, fewer laws and more educated people is the best solution.

I absolutely agree with this.

[TAG UR IT]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

Yes, it is about your liberties. It's YOUR car. YOU paid for it, YOU pay to insure it, YOU buy the gas for it, and it was YOUR labor that earned the money to pay for those things. So YOU should decide whether you want to wear your seat belt or not in YOUR car.

Ok then.

Then if I'm paying for the road and it's use, then I demand that you wear your seatbelt so that when you get into an accident, you don't take me out with you. Hey...I'm paying for it. It's my liberty as a consumer...I own the car. I paid for it. I pay to insure it. I buy the gas for it. It was my labor that earned the money to pay for those things. So, if you are going to be on the road with me, I want to be safe. Therefore, if you expect to share the road with me, I DEMAND that you wear your seat belt. It's my liberty as a consumer of all these things to make this demand.

Originally Posted by strych9

With all due respect, you just don't get it. Okay, I get that you've acknowledged that seat belts save lives. You just don't want THE MAN to tell you that you have to. Protection of personal freedoms and all that. Yeah, I get it.

strych9....do you ever get that feeling???

Originally Posted by strych9

Dude, your parents and any parent raising us 40-somethings didn't know any better back then. Hell, I used to sit on my dad's lap and steer the car in the city, @ 5 years old! He was drinking a beer and having a smoke at the same time! Nobody really calculated all those risks, as they do today.

With the advent of computer models and a greater ability to crunch numbers into something measurable, we now know how great a risk that behavior was. Do you have kids of your own? Do you lead by example?

If you don't, I guess you can wave your flag and do whatever you want, damn all consequences. If you do have kids, then you're an irresponsible parent if you don't wear your seatbelt to lead by example.

I turned out alive and well, too. That doesn't mean I need to tempt the odds to work against me. It isn't my driving I worry about; it's guys like my employee that thought, "It'll never happen to me."

yep

Originally Posted by PQ

Doug, I never thought of it that far into it. I've worn my seatbelt ever since my best friend (Alabama State trooper) made me look at some AI pics in an attempt to get me to wear it. It worked.

But, even though I wore my seatbelt I always maintained that it shouldn't be forced upon me.

You have just changed my mind. I was never vocal about it and never really thought about it much until this post.

Nicely done.

Why, thank you very much!

[Vaux96]

I had 2 posts in this thread and I would like to know why they were deleted.

[Vaux96]

--- ""By not wearing one, you increase the odds of losing control of your vehicle in a collision and infrigning upon the liberties of others in a secondary collision."

I guess this is true to an extent, but really hard to measure. You are going to sit here and definitively tell me what level of control a person would have over a vehicle after it has just been in a collision, seat belt or not? Sounds impossible. With all of the different variables, you could only assume that maybe a person would have had more control over a vehicle if they had a seat belt on. And that would only be on certain types of accidents.

And Tag Your It, that was a real touching story, but I still think 100% of the blame in that instance lies with the person that started the accident. There is no difference in using the logic that "if you had used your seat belt those kids would be alive" than "if the moron wouldn't have hit me those kids would still be alive". Well, I guess the difference is, if you had your seat belt on, MAYBE you would be able to keep control. If the guy never hits you, then all of it never even happened in the first place. Maybe you should be preaching safe driving instead.

Of course, I am not saying you shouldn't wear a seat belt, you certainly should. My big issue is that it's a law, and it shouldn't be.

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by Vaux96

--- ""By not wearing one, you increase the odds of losing control of your vehicle in a collision and infrigning upon the liberties of others in a secondary collision."

I guess this is true to an extent, but really hard to measure. You are going to sit here and definitively tell me what level of control a person would have over a vehicle after it has just been in a collision, seat belt or not? Sounds impossible. With all of the different variables, you could only assume that maybe a person would have had more control over a vehicle if they had a seat belt on. And that would only be on certain types of accidents.

And Tag Your It, that was a real touching story, but I still think 100% of the blame in that instance lies with the person that started the accident. There is no difference in using the logic that "if you had used your seat belt those kids would be alive" than "if the moron wouldn't have hit me those kids would still be alive". Well, I guess the difference is, if you had your seat belt on, MAYBE you would be able to keep control. If the guy never hits you, then all of it never even happened in the first place. Maybe you should be preaching safe driving instead.

Of course, I am not saying you shouldn't wear a seat belt, you certainly should. My big issue is that it's a law, and it shouldn't be.

If you wear your seatbelt, and make passengers in your car wear their seatbelts, then why does it matter if it's a law or not? You already wear it.

[CamaroSkooter]

Originally Posted by Vaux96

--- ""By not wearing one, you increase the odds of losing control of your vehicle in a collision and infrigning upon the liberties of others in a secondary collision."

I guess this is true to an extent, but really hard to measure. You are going to sit here and definitively tell me what level of control a person would have over a vehicle after it has just been in a collision, seat belt or not? Sounds impossible. With all of the different variables, you could only assume that maybe a person would have had more control over a vehicle if they had a seat belt on. And that would only be on certain types of accidents.

Did you read my post #69?

I was in a t-bone collision. I watched my sunglasses fly off my face in what felt like slow motion. And that was with my seat belt ON.

If I hadn't have been wearing it, the sunglasses would not have left my face. My face would have just followed the same trajectory

Consider that fact measured. I sacrificed myself in the name of science

[Lou_Dorchen]

Despite this ridiculous assertion that wearing your seatbelt makes it safer for others I keep hearing here, I've never heard any legislator calling for seat belt laws using this argument. Can anyone point to any legislator saying this or statistics on how many accidents are caused by people not wearing seatbelts?

And if we are saying that anything that reduces the chance of losing control of a car be be mandated by law, then we need to ban any mods that make the cars faster. After all, the faster a car goes the easier it is to lose control over it and thus injure other people.

Once again, if we use the public safety argument to justify new laws, regulations, and bans then alot more things we enjoy about cars will be banned using that reasoning. Those of you defending Government interference into our personal lives in the name of safety need to consider this.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

[CamaroSkooter]

So, because a specific reason was not illustrated when the law was passed means that reason is invalid?

[KXRM]

Originally Posted by Lou_Dorchen

Despite this ridiculous assertion that wearing your seatbelt makes it safer for others I keep hearing here, I've never heard any legislator calling for seat belt laws using this argument. Can anyone point to any legislator saying this or statistics on how many accidents are caused by people not wearing seatbelts?

And if we are saying that anything that reduces the chance of losing control of a car be be mandated by law, then we need to ban any mods that make the cars faster. After all, the faster a car goes the easier it is to lose control over it and thus injure other people.

Once again, if we use the public safety argument to justify new laws, regulations, and bans then alot more things we enjoy about cars will be banned using that reasoning. Those of you defending Government interference into our personal lives in the name of safety need to consider this.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Please stop using straw man arguments. There is a difference between seat belt laws and regulations and limits on fast vehicles. I get it, you think that if we pass one law that it suddenly means we need to pass laws to keep us from ever even coming into contact with a hard surface or another person. That is not what will happen. This is why I called your side crackpot earlier. You think that this is some sort of a sign of an erosion of your rights. The reality is, a seatbelt law is a just law because it protects you and I and everyone else on a public road. Is it 100% fool proof? No, but it is safer than the alternative.

Personally, I think it should be illegal to text and drive but I know plenty of people here who do it and think that it would be an infringement on their personal liberties. Anything that is regulated is an infringement on personal liberties, but it has to be balanced with facts. If a seat belt saves more lives and doesn't extremely hamper your ability to enjoy a vehicle then it should be a law. It could be worse, they could require a 5 point harness on everyone in a vehicle, that would be safer right? But the balance is comfort and freedom of movement. So they don't require it.

Generally a good regulation is one that most follow, so given that most follow seat belt laws as a matter of practice shows that it is a good law.

[Lou_Dorchen]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

So, because a specific reason was not illustrated when the law was passed means that reason is invalid?

I didn't say that. I also asked for statistics backing up the assertion your side made about that. Lets just see how serious a danger people not wearing seatbelts are to others. Back up your assertions.

Originally Posted by KXRM

There is a difference between seat belt laws and regulations and limits on fast vehicles. I get it, you think that if we pass one law that it suddenly means we need to pass laws to keep us from ever even coming into contact with a hard surface or another person. That is not what will happen.

There is a difference and I didn't say there wasnt. I said if we use the 'public safety' argument to advocate more laws, bans, etc then there can be alot more liberties we enjoy related to our cars that can be taken away using that logic. And you cannot say that will not happen. If I told people 20 years ago the Government would be outlawing certain foods and drinks under the guise of protecting us from ourselves I would have been called a crackpot back then, but I would have proven right.

Originally Posted by KXRM

Anything that is regulated is an infringement on personal liberties, but it has to be balanced with facts. If a seat belt saves more lives and doesn't extremely hamper your ability to enjoy a vehicle then it should be a law.

LMAO at you putting in "extremely"! Yeah, the Founders gave us the right to pursue happiness only in things we extremely enjoy. And no, the Founders did not say we should give up our liberties if its balanced with facts.