(jalopnik) Chevy’s Anti-GT500, Pro-Camaro ZL1 Smack-Talking Powerpoint

[ParisTNDude]

Originally Posted by MauriSSio

again you guys are acting like all live axle cars are just jumping around all over the place and are uncontrolable

I don't think it's "you guys" that are saying that at all. Most of the magazine articles I've read comparing IRS cars to live-axle have clearly stated that the IRS was much more controllable at speed. Ford did wonders with the current Mustang platform, but remember that suspension system dates back to the early 80s (and Caesar's chariots)! There has to be a "good" reason why Ford is developing an IRS for it's next generation 2014-15 Mustang.

[bada]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

I want to chime in on your chime. I had a Dodge Charger 440RT that spent most weekends at the dragstrip running in "Pure Stock"...remember that class? In that class was the 390 Fords, 396 375HP (solid lifter) Chevelles and 327 350HP Novas or chevy IIs. I won more trophys during that time than at any other time in my life...my Charger was invincincible. You were subject to "tear-down" if someone protested your "Pure Stock" rating. I'm a Chevy guy through and through, but in those days in South Carolina, the MOPARS ruled (Indiana as well).....lol.

All I can say. We had the same cars here. The 440 charger ETC... And the chevys ruled. Its a good thing you did not live around here then. Or you would have gotten your feeling hurt. Especially on the street.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by Drake Heminger

Damn bro you shut him down... Kudos!

Nobody shuts me down bro'. I'm a competitive debater by nature. 80% of my profession is the gift of gab.

Go back and read my response.

GM marketing hype commented that the ZL1 had a bunch of components that were not included on the existing GT500, yet the 2013 GT500 will have the transmission and diff. cooling systems that are equipped on the ZL1.

I'd chalk that up as a 1-0 win for me because it's on point with my very first response to the OP's thread that it's all BS marketing hype and in my eyes a desperate measure to do a comparison of unequal vehicles to generate sales by doing a comparison of value.

If you recall the ZL1 original goals were to take on the Boss 302, that was done (point taken ZL1 barely smokes the Boss 302 on the track), and now because Ford responded with a 2013 GT500 that will smoke the ZL1, GM's responds with a comparison of parts not included on the 2012 model of the Ford GT500. That's pointless becaue anyone with half a brain is not going to buy a 2012 GT500 knowing that a 2013 GT500 is coming with 670hp. and a race package similar to the offering of a ZL1, including all the cooling systems.

Don't get involved with the debate if you don't read to collect all the details.

[SSmoked]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Nobody shuts me down bro'. I'm a competitive debater by nature. 80% of my profession is the gift of gab.

Go back and read my response.

GM marketing hype commented that the ZL1 had a bunch of components that were not included on the existing GT500, yet the 2013 GT500 will have the transmission and diff. cooling systems that are equipped on the ZL1.


If you recall the ZL1 original goals were to take on the Boss 302, that was done (point taken ZL1 barely smokes the Boss 302 on the track).

"2013 GT500 will have... cooling systems that are equipped on the ZL1" thoses cooling systems are OPTIONAL for the shelby. without these cooling systems and track packs i dont see the mustang being very balanced at all.
And you can say the the same thing about the GT-r vs ZL1, the GT-r barely smokes the ZL1 on the track...

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by HEMI DAVE

According to my March 2012 issue of Car and Driver after they did a ride along in a 2013 GT500 during recent testing:

1) 0 to 60....3.7 sec
2) 0 to 100 ......8.7 sec
3) 1/4 mile....11.7 sec
4) Top speed.... 202 confirmed
5) Cost... Just under **60K.....and thats BASE

They are looking to sell about 10,000 units per year.....they will sell as many as people order....it will not be limited

if this is true then the track pack car is likely to be 63-65k. So it will be an awesome car but that is not cheap.

this is what I thought all along. The car will be awesome but also not cheap enough where a person that could afford the 2012 will automatically be abble to buy a 2013. so it will be no different that the argument that the Boss 302 LS getting bested by the Zl-1 is unfair.

kind of funny when you look at it.

49k boss 302 LS
55k ZL-1
60k Gt500 (without track pack)
63-65k gt500 (with track pack)

So all this brand favoritism and bickering really boils down to if you spend more you get a faster car ha ha.

[HEMI DAVE]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

If the Car and Driver numbers for the GT500 are accurate, and the numbers for the ZL1 from the recent Ignition video are accurate, and if the GT500 base price (not including the SVT Track pack) is just under $60K, and if one more concerned with ease of driveability rather than with top speed, wouldn't the ZL1 be a better value?

Lots of if's and but's .....

.....but if all that pans out....

.......I would say the ZL1 is the better value...yes.

Hell ...a fully optioned out 2013 GT500 might be north of 65K....

Kick ass car but it's not gonna come cheap.......

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

GM marketing hype commented that the ZL1 had a bunch of components that were not included on the existing GT500, yet the 2013 GT500 will have the transmission and diff. cooling systems that are equipped on the ZL1.

I'd chalk that up as a 1-0 win for me because it's on point with my very first response to the OP's thread that it's all BS marketing hype and in my eyes a desperate measure to do a comparison of unequal vehicles to generate sales by doing a comparison of value.

Once more time for the record, Al Oppenhieser stated, "Our approach was to make every Camaro ZL1 fully track-capable, from the factory. As we announced today, the ZL1 Coupe will start at $54,995 with standard Magnetic Ride Control, standard Performance Traction Management, and standard track-capable equipment such as a rear-differential cooler, brake cooling ducts, and an engine and transmission cooler.

None of our customers will have to buy extra options – or modify their ZL1 – for track-day usage. That is not the case for the current GT500, or their new car."

That statement is still accurate. In order to get oil cooler, transmission cooler, and differential cooler on the 2013 GT500, one must order the extra cost SVT Track Pack option. The ZL1 comes standard with those items required for track day usage. Things are exactly as Al Oppenhieser stated they would be.

I think you'll find that value, which you appear to dismiss, is extremely important to most car buyers, including the purchasers of Mustangs and Camaros. According to the March 2012 Car and Driver, the 2013 GT500's base price will be just under $60K, and that doesn't include the SVT Track Pack option required to get the cooling systems that are finally available for the GT500.

If the Car and Driver performance numbers for the 2013 GT500 are accurate, and the numbers for the ZL1 from the recent Ignition video are accurate, and if the 2013 GT500 base price (not including the SVT Track pack) is just under $60K, and if one more concerned with ease of driveability rather than with top speed, wouldn't the ZL1 seem to be be a better value?

I, and I think many on members of Camaro5, fail to understand how you can characterize truth and value with regard to the comparison of "equal" vehicles as marketing hype.

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

I want to chime in on your chime. I had a Dodge Charger 440RT that spent most weekends at the dragstrip running in "Pure Stock"...remember that class? In that class was the 390 Fords, 396 375HP (solid lifter) Chevelles and 327 350HP Novas or chevy IIs. I won more trophys during that time than at any other time in my life...my Charger was invincincible. You were subject to "tear-down" if someone protested your "Pure Stock" rating. I'm a Chevy guy through and through, but in those days in South Carolina, the MOPARS ruled (Indiana as well).....lol.

just wondering when they did the tear down. did they put it back together for you guys also? free rebuild?

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

I don't think it's "you guys" that are saying that at all. Most of the magazine articles I've read comparing IRS cars to live-axle have clearly stated that the IRS was much more controllable at speed. Ford did wonders with the current Mustang platform, but remember that suspension system dates back to the early 80s (and Caesar's chariots)! There has to be a "good" reason why Ford is developing an IRS for it's next generation 2014-15 Mustang.

the IRS is an upgrade in comfort and stability for sure, i never said it wasnt. but its not exactly a a HUGE jump from a properly set up solid axle car. the Mustang GT's and Boss's numbers vs the SS and M3's show that. Thats why its taken ford so long to take that step.

Originally Posted by bada

All I can say. We had the same cars here. The 440 charger ETC... And the chevys ruled. Its a good thing you did not live around here then. Or you would have gotten your feeling hurt. Especially on the street.

Maybe you should have gone to your local track.

Originally Posted by hognutz

if this is true then the track pack car is likely to be 63-65k. So it will be an awesome car but that is not cheap.

this is what I thought all along. The car will be awesome but also not cheap enough where a person that could afford the 2012 will automatically be abble to buy a 2013. so it will be no different that the argument that the Boss 302 LS getting bested by the Zl-1 is unfair.

kind of funny when you look at it.

49k boss 302 LS
55k ZL-1
60k Gt500 (without track pack)
63-65k gt500 (with track pack)

So all this brand favoritism and bickering really boils down to if you spend more you get a faster car ha ha.

the 2012 boss 302 LS is 47k
also dont forget to add the gas guzzler tax for the ZL1

Originally Posted by HEMI DAVE

Lots of if's and but's .....

.....but if all that pans out....

.......I would say the ZL1 is the better value...yes.

Hell ...a fully optioned out 2013 GT500 might be north of 65K....

Kick ass car but it's not gonna come cheap.......

Hell none of these cars are cheap

All these cars are expensive by my standards and out of my league for "toy" expenditures unfortunately

[69NMYSS]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

So now drag racing is the topic, not road racing? With all the talk about MR, road racing, and the nurburgring, you were really saying the cts-v is faster in a straight line. . . gotcha . So where does the extra 100hp, taller gearing, launch control, and revised suspension of the new gt500 come into play there? I wouldn't bet on the zl1 beating the '13 gt500 in a drag race. 0-60, maybe. 1/4 mile, unlikely.

Unfortunately I would have to agree. The new GT500 is going to smack the Camaro in the 1/4 mile, 0-60 will be close (I believe the 500 will still have traction problems) but once it catches, the 650HP and lighter weight is likely to trap in mid possibly high 120's. BTW, I am the proud (future) owner of a ZL1 vin #52 with no regrets, regardless of what the new GT500 does. The ZL1 is by far the most well rounded vehicle.

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by fox

I think value is in having the option to choose between a track oriented version and a version without that degree of everyday compromise.

The reality of the situation is that very, very few people who purchase these cars will actually race them in any meaningful way. They are simply toys for "sixty thousand dollar millionaires" to claim to have something slighter better than the next guy.

Any evidence claiming otherwise is simply anecdotal.

I personally don't believe in a 20% price hike from the 2012 to 2013 GT500 either.

I'm with you on that one. I expect the base model to come in right around the price of the ZL1's base price, if not a bit below it. Now once you start optioning out the GT500 to make it comparable to the ZL1's features, I think you'll be in the $60's for sure.

The people predicting a $60k+ base price GT500 sound to me like the same ones that were predicting a $60k+ base price ZL1.

[HEMI DAVE]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

The people predicting a $60k+ base price GT500 sound to me like the same ones that were predicting a $60k+ base price ZL1.

The only ones that stated about 60K here was Car and Driver after an invite from Ford to drive along.

I dont think they pulled that number out of a hat either, going to come down to the accuracy of their source.

I am certainly not predicting anything..........but if I was to I would have said about 55K base

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

It pulled on it in 7 corners.

What do you mean "pulled?" Do you mean got closer? Yes. Did it overtake it? Hell no. Are you just randomly making up corners as we go along here?

Neither chart indicates the Boss outperformed the Camaro in speed or lateral G; the MPH was a clear win for the Camaro, where the lateral G had more Camaro peaks with a few Boss peaks.

Uh, what do you think the point is? Last time I checked when you're racing you start equal.

You seem to have a point there, but perhaps there was a plotting error. I honestly don't know on that one.

Google Inde. Not that tough.

I did and I'm struggling to find a change between the main configuration at Indy and the one where the ZL1 and Boss raced.

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by HEMI DAVE

The only ones that stated about 60K here was Car and Driver after an invite from Ford to drive along.

I dont think they pulled that number out of a hat either, going to come down to the accuracy of their source.

I am certainly not predicting anything..........but if I was to I would have said about 55K base

I've seen plenty of speculation outside of this thread that the GT500 price will start significantly higher than the current model. Many have predicted the $60k starting price range.

And Car and Driver doesn't have a clue what the GT500 will cost, just like they didn't have a clue with their prediction of what the ZL1 would cost prior to the pricing announcement. Just because they hung out with Ford for a day during development testing doesn't mean they have all the answers.

And neither do I, but I'll stick with my guess that we both seem to share and see how close that compares to the actual number when released by Ford.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Ford backed off from a race, in Germany, in winter, when their car wasn't finished? WOW, that really means something.

I'm sure GM expected them to leave straight from the LA Auto Show and race.

Off Topic:

I wonder if some Germans think the Boss Laguna Seca isn’t as good because it was tuned on a track in America?