Why turn off the "nannies" with normal driving?

[thahemp]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

I think the point has been made before that even an experienced driver when turning off the driving aids the first time will work up to the limits. Everyone should always learn their car's abilities and disabilities just in case you get into a emergency situation you will know how your car will react. That applies to driving both with them on and with them off.
Only a fool will turn them off and DROP the hammer before knowing the car's capabilities.

Yep. It took me months of testing before I laid into her. I wouldn't recommend road course style driving under any circumstances other than on a road coarse. That includes taking a turn too fast and losing traction. Whether it is a surprise or not, that occurrence should have been on the list of possibilities when taking a corner on a public road. Once you acknowledge these things CAN happen, you are equipped to prevent them properly... with your brain!

[Scalded Dog]

When TC/ Stabilitrac are on, my brakes are always dragging, and the engine is restricted to only about 50 hp. And, sometimes, one of the wheels will waaaAAAAYYYY overaccelerate (worst when one of the fronts does it!), and makes me get sideways when not expecting it................................................ ......Come on! The things people believe about the passive system are amazing. However, some of the analogies suggested are decent, but not "one size fits all..." The seatbelt analogy is good, as the seatbelt never ever helps you drive any better, and, "hell, in all my years of drivin,' I ain't never needed one of them." The seatbelt only "kicks in" and does its job once you get into a jam... a bad situation. Maybe you never needed it before, and maybe you never will... but it's one more layer of protection for everyday driving........................................... ........................ I do turn mine off, when I plan on doing some Smokey and the Bandit stuff out there, or for ocassional other reasons. I won't go into the whole "I'm an excellent driver" (because even Rain Man can say that), but CAN tell you, that AS a commercial driver for many years, as a stunt driver (short, but sweet experience), as a seasoned off- roader, and a guy who drives way too fast for most people's comfort levels or legal boundaries-- with no accidents on my record--- I love the fact that there is one additional level of safety that has been added just in case I flunk up and exceed my limits. I might be good, a legend in my own mind even... but, realistically, I know that I might push it too far, and while there's no guarantee that the nannies can save me, they still offer just one more line of defense... before my seatbelt starts earning its keep.

[Scalded Dog]

Oh, and while I DID grow up driving vehicles with no such thing as TC/ Stabilitrac... or ABS, or a third brake light, or crumple zones... I see the technology as another improvement. It's there for the taking. I also grew up without cell phones, or computers, or On- Demand. Didn't have AC in MOST of the cars I had back in the day, and had to hand crank the windows. Do I like all the newfangled stuff? Hell yes. Don't make me go back.

[thahemp]

Those points have already been intelligently addressed.

[OHIOSS]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

One of the TC's responses is to cut power once it has determined that wheelspin is occurring. I don't know how much slip has to occur for this to happen, but I'd guess that if you pulled the front tires at the dragstrip with TC left on that it would kick in and chop throttle shortly thereafter.


I would take that right away as you needing to develop better throttle modulation and possibly steering skills. This isn't at all intended as flame; I'm being entirely serious. Under conditions of reduced grip, you have to be "smoother" with your steering and pedal inputs.

It is even possible that the electronic throttle opens the throttle a little too aggressively for those conditions and that ST is actively being counted on to keep people out of the sort of difficulty that you've noticed. I disagree with that philosophy, but there probably are people who would never develop the "smoothness" demanded by conditions and the available power.




This is exactly the kind of vehicle dynamic behavior that the nannies won't let you learn how to cope with.

It's what happens when you've got the front tires steered "into the skid" like you're supposed to do to keep the car from spinning out in the first direction. The problem then becomes what happens now that you've caught the first skid and the rear tires are now pointed outside where the front tires are steered and want to spin the car the other way as soon as they find any grip? Yup, the car will want to snap around the other way which will really catch you off guard if you don't know to expect this.

No beginning driver's ed school I ever heard of even mentions that this can happen, and ST won't let you learn it. Not that you should contemplate intentionally learning about this second spin on the public roads anyway, but ST either won't let you get to that point at all or at best won't let you learn how to cope with it very well because it'll keep inserting its own corrections. But this is still something you ought to both know about and know how to cope with if you're going to be driving cars this powerful and actually using that power from time to time (with great power comes great responsibility?).

Autocross and other performance driving schools and the Tire Rack/SCCA "Survival Teen Driver Schools" are the only places I can think of offhand that might introduce this situation and how to cope with it.


I have to wonder how much worse today's newest crop of drivers would fare, jumping into an SS396 Chevelle on a minimal amount of driving experience, than those of us who grew up with them and cars like them.


Norm

Good information, thanks Norm.

The tire slip when it's wet I contribute to the tires and/or how slippery the road is. I don't think anyone will say our Pirelli's are good in the rain.

When I spun out I'm glad I had enough skill to not hit the guardrail or dump it into the 8' ditch on the other side. I am very good at driving in the snow and ice, I can't tell you how many accidents I've avoided simply because I kept control of the vehicle. That's why I never dreamed my Camaro could get away from me.

Russ

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Your basic position boils down to 1.) Driving with safety devices does not teach a person the car control skills they would need if the safety devices were not there.

Close, but not quite. The safety devices can in no way actually teach any skill, but they can prevent you from learning a few. Primary here might be the ability to cope with the "second spin" - which does get taken away.

But they are there... and they do not fail.

I'm afraid that I know differently. There are at least a couple dozen cases where Ford's "Advancetrak" system would intermittently go all spastic without apparent reason but generally following a certain sequence of unrelated events, hard-braking each individual wheel in turn. If you don't think that's a serious situation, or that the same thing couldn't happen to a few Camaros, you really need to reconsider your position. It's absolutely possible. Remote, sure. But it's hard evidence that these systems aren't quite as failure-proof as you'd like to believe. FWIW, the fix (after several months of datalogging until incident data could be captured) ended up being replacement at the ABS level. Given that ABS is the oldest and presumably the most mature of these systems, keep the blinders off and your eyes open, please. Even a six-sigma level of quality still allows 3 or 4 failures or outliers per million.

Again, I'm not throwing this out there as a basis for turning the systems off. Only that absolute, unyielding trust in them is not entirely warranted either. Truth be told, I was hoping I wouldn't feel any need to mention that Ford one but I don't think I'd be able to convince you that safety system failures actually do happen otherwise.

It also assumes that the person would not learn those skills in a safe and controlled manner via some other venue other than daily driving on the street

It assumes no such thing. You're inferring more than was intended. I do my best to avoid this, but the internet and my writing/editing skills being what they are, things like this still slip through.

2.) My (your) wife and I have not had an accident in 40 years therefore safety devices are unnecessary.

Close, but not quite (again). What it shows is that they were proven not necessary over most of that history apparently for all four of us. Anything beyond that is up to each of these four individuals to decide whether that constitutes sufficient evidence to continue without them. Some will, others won't. Honestly, I don't think my wife ever turns the stability control off in her car, though that's more out of avoiding the extra task (ask her and she'll tell you that "you have to know your car" in exactly that many words).

Did you happen to catch where I mentioned that 3 of our 4 cars do not have a ST system, 2 do not have TC, and one does not even have ABS? Does that suddenly make the quarter million or so total miles on them without a nanny-preventable incident so worthless that I should immediately sell them all for fully-nanny-ized replacements? I really hope you don't think so.

You and your wife are much too small a sample size to have any relevance whatsoever.

I agree that it's not a big enough sample size for me to make any recommendations to others, so I don't (and to the best of my recollection haven't). But it is sufficient to anecdotally note that it can be done if you always drive with sufficient care, this being counterpoint to those who apparently doubt that such is still possible rather than as encouragement to others to follow suit.

I snipped out the straw man.

Perhaps the whole crux of the matter is in the perceptions. I find it somewhat insulting to be told that I must keep these systems active given the experiences closest to me and what I know about myself. You probably think I'm a moron for not soundly embracing every last bit of externally determined and engineered safety. We're just going to have to agree that we'll always disagree on this, I guess.


Since this thread is about safety systems in general rather than any of them in particular, let's look at one more item. Another currently running thread has very recently mentioned that the Hill Start Assist system might have been defined as a "safety system". Do you really agree with that? Take it as a rhetorical question if you prefer.


Norm

[thahemp]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

My next door neighbor smoked like a chimney until he died of old age at 92. Does that prove the dangers of smoking are overstated?

I would say that this is a bad argument in addition to Norm's comments. There's no amount of forward thinking that can prevent cancer if you're a smoker, other than quitting obviously, but that wasn't your point. Either you get it or you don't. There is no way you can think your way out of getting cancer. Your neighbor got lucky.

:EDIT:

Haha.. you were the one that brought up the straw man. How ironic?

[2xSSRS]

Originally Posted by erik13

I never thought I'd see a bunch of grown men arguing about a button in a car.

Well ther ya go. You are assuming they are all grown men....
Just Kidding Guys.... Just a little jocularity...

[thahemp]

Originally Posted by 2xSSRS

Well ther ya go. You are assuming they are all grown men....
Just Kidding Guys.... Just a little jocularity...

Unfortunately I think some of us have passed the "grown man" phase and become old farts! I'm not quite that old, but I always seem to agree with these more experienced guys.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by mntgome1

I dont know how to turn my nannies ON.....

Thats a good thing or your wife may divorce you if you get caught.

[thahemp]

[Micawber]

Originally Posted by jd10013

.....why do they have to shout it from the rooftops that they don't use them?

Please review the title of this thread again. Our opinions were actively solicited. If you did read the title, what did you expect to find here? Are you so convinced that yours is the only possible valid opinion that all others would be shouted down?

[MrWray]

Originally Posted by Micawber

Please review the title of this thread again. Our opinions were actively solicited. If you did read the title, what did you expect to find here? Are you so convinced that yours is the only possible valid opinion that all others would be shouted down?

another good point^^

and also i havent seen anyone "condoning" young or inexperienced drivers to turn off the nannies like a couple of people have stated. as far as i know people are still capable of making their own decisions,now its obvious that common sense isnt very "common" anymore,but still. nobody has told anyone else to turn them off, others have just stated that THEY do,and why THEY do.

[jcsuddre]

Had it not been for stabiltrack i would of wrecked and possibly seriously hurt myself about 2 months ago. Stabiltrack saved me so it wont ever be turned off in my car. I would debate on TC if i am planning on showing off and doing burn out or something otherwise it stays on too