(jalopnik) Chevy’s Anti-GT500, Pro-Camaro ZL1 Smack-Talking Powerpoint

[GTAHVIT]

Since some of our mustang brothers are getting their feelings hurt that we put them on notice to accept that this site and it's staff cater to Camaro owners....

Let me say this.

This thread is a perfect example of how we should behave. Debate, even heated at times, is acceptable. personal attacks, antagonistic sarcasm, and instigative posts are beyond the rules of this site.

There are a few posts in here that are both blind fanboy and trollish... but largely everyone is having a respectful debate without breaking the rules.

Please use this thread as a reference moving forward.

State your case, do it respectfully and when all else fails, agree to disagree...

It's really all we're asking from all our members.

FWIW.

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

I'm sure GM expected them to leave straight from the LA Auto Show and race.

Off Topic:

I wonder if some Germans think the Boss Laguna Seca isn’t as good because it was tuned on a track in America?

[HEMI DAVE]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

I've seen plenty of speculation outside of this thread that the GT500 price will start significantly higher than the current model. Many have predicted the $60k starting price range.

And Car and Driver doesn't have a clue what the GT500 will cost, just like they didn't have a clue with their prediction of what the ZL1 would cost prior to the pricing announcement. Just because they hung out with Ford for a day during development testing doesn't mean they have all the answers.

And neither do I, but I'll stick with my guess that we both seem to share and see how close that compares to the actual number when released by Ford.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Once more time for the record, Al Oppenhieser stated, "Our approach was to make every Camaro ZL1 fully track-capable, from the factory. As we announced today, the ZL1 Coupe will start at $54,995 with standard Magnetic Ride Control, standard Performance Traction Management, and standard track-capable equipment such as a rear-differential cooler, brake cooling ducts, and an engine and transmission cooler.

None of our customers will have to buy extra options – or modify their ZL1 – for track-day usage. That is not the case for the current GT500, or their new car."

That statement is still accurate. In order to get oil cooler, transmission cooler, and differential cooler on the 2013 GT500, one must order the extra cost SVT Track Pack option. The ZL1 comes standard with those items required for track day usage. Things are exactly as Al Oppenhieser stated they would be.

I think you'll find that value, which you appear to dismiss, is extremely important to most car buyers, including the purchasers of Mustangs and Camaros. According to the March 2012 Car and Driver, the 2013 GT500's base price will be just under $60K, and that doesn't include the SVT Track Pack option required to get the cooling systems that are finally available for the GT500.

If the Car and Driver performance numbers for the 2013 GT500 are accurate, and the numbers for the ZL1 from the recent Ignition video are accurate, and if the 2013 GT500 base price (not including the SVT Track pack) is just under $60K, and if one more concerned with ease of driveability rather than with top speed, wouldn't the ZL1 seem to be be a better value?

I, and I think many on members of Camaro5, fail to understand how you can characterize truth and value with regard to the comparison of "equal" vehicles as marketing hype.

Bro', obviously you are an intelligent individual, and for the most part there is a lot of what you say that I agree with in terms of business practices.

And, you're right about a factual statement for the current Ford GT500 offering vs ZL1, however, that's the reason I say it's marketing hype as I don't think that will be relevant to the 2013 GT500 vs ZL1 comparison.

So for GM to point out lack of cooling systems on current Mustang is practically a useless statement because anyone that wants a Mustang that can go head to head at this point with the ZL1 would obviously purchase the 2013 model not the 2012. That's the reason I say it's "marketing hype". It's basically a rediculous argument, and seems a bit desparate, trivial and immature. Second, if the 2013 has an option for cooling because it's not standard it's still symantics because it's still a stock option, if the price / performance comparison is the same, who cares if it's an option or not? I don't give a rats ass if I have to put a checkmark on a piece of paper if it costs the same. And, regardless you nor I or anyone else know for sure what the final 2013 GT500 may turn out to be so it's all speculation which still makes GM memo "marketing hype".

I think the difference between you and I; You lean towards the product you like most which is the ZL1 vs my viewpoint which is strictly from a consumers analysis of both vendor offerings. Obviously, I prefer a Camaro as that's what I own, however, I definately like the Mustang GT500, and would love to own a 2013 version along with my Camaro SS. So, I don't have any allegiance to GM or Ford, I'm just gonna' buy what I like regardless who makes it.

I'm a good cook, but, I'm not stirring the pot, that recipe was already in the mix by the OP long before I got involved. LOL

[nanokpsi]

Originally Posted by HEMI DAVE

The only ones that stated about 60K here was Car and Driver after an invite from Ford to drive along.

I dont think they pulled that number out of a hat either, going to come down to the accuracy of their source.

I am certainly not predicting anything..........but if I was to I would have said about 55K base

At the initial unveiling of all the 2013 mustangs, they had the graphics you could scan with your smart phone and it would take you to a spec sheet listing price. For the GT500's, it said between 51-53k est.

If you look at the current pricing structure, The Mustang is priced lower at every model and trim apckage, ie base V6 compared to 1lt V6, Premium to 2lt, etc. The ZL1 vs GT500 will be no different.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

This thread is a perfect example of how we should behave. Debate, even heated at times, is acceptable. personal attacks, antagonistic sarcasm, and instigative posts are beyond the rules of this site.

There are a few posts in here that are both blind fanboy and trollish... but largely everyone is having a respectful debate without breaking the rules.

I'm in troublez.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Bro', obviously you are an intelligent individual, and for the most part there is a lot of what you say that I agree with in terms of business practices.

And, you're right about a factual statement for the current Ford GT500 offering vs ZL1, however, that's the reason I say it's marketing hype as I don't think that will be relevant to the 2013 GT500 vs ZL1 comparison.

So for GM to point out lack of cooling systems on current Mustang is practically a useless statement because anyone that wants a Mustang that can go head to head at this point with the ZL1 would obviously purchase the 2013 model not the 2012. That's the reason I say it's "marketing hype". It's basically a rediculous argument, and seems a bit desparate, trivial and immature. Second, if the 2013 has an option for cooling because it's not standard it's still symantics because it's still a stock option, if the price / performance comparison is the same, who cares if it's an option or not? I don't give a rats ass if I have to put a checkmark on a piece of paper if it costs the same. And, regardless you nor I or anyone else know for sure what the final 2013 GT500 may turn out to be so it's all speculation which still makes GM memo "marketing hype".

I think the difference between you and I; You lean towards the product you like most which is the ZL1 vs my viewpoint which is strictly from a consumers analysis of both vendor offerings. Obviously, I prefer a Camaro as that's what I own, however, I definately like the Mustang GT500, and would love to own a 2013 version along with my Camaro SS. So, I don't have any allegiance to GM or Ford, I'm just gonna' buy what I like regardless who makes it.

I'm a good cook, but, I'm not stirring the pot, that recipe was already in the mix by the OP long before I got involved. LOL

We'll agree to disagree, as it appears that marketing "hype" is in the eyes and ears of the beholder.

I think that a difference between you and me with regard any ZL1 marketing "hype" is the definition of "hype." I don't believe Al's statements were excessive, extravagant, or misleading, which are the types of statements that I associate with "hype." I characterize Al's statements as factual and standard marketing promotion rather than "hype."

Also, if the latest Car and Driver pricing estimates are relatively accurate, then the cost of a 2013 GT500 with the SVT Trak Pack option will be materially more expensive than the cost of a base 2013 ZL1 which comes standard with the track ready cooling systems. You appear to think that the track ready GT500 and ZL1 will cost the same, and I'm not so sure. Time will tell.

I think that the 2013 GT500 will be fine car. However, I admit that since the 1960s I have generally preferred GM styling to Ford styling, and styling, along with performance and value are the factors that are the most important to me when purchasing a vehicle. I do not purchase vehicles based strictly on performance alone. If the performance and price between two vehicles is relatively close, I will purchase the vehicle which I think has the better styling.

[ffrcobra_65]

I think that we can have a good time in friendly back and forth (informative) debates if everyone just keeps and open mind and try harder to read/understand the other people's points and points of view. Often time, guys (including me at times) just get overly defensive and get close-minded. Some just like to post argumentative points just to post.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

We'll agree to disagree, as it appears that marketing "hype" is in the eyes and ears of the beholder.

I think that a difference between you and me with regard any ZL1 marketing "hype" is the definition of "hype." I don't believe Al's statements were excessive, extravagant, or misleading, which are the types of statements that I associate with "hype." I characterize Al's statements as factual and standard marketing promotion rather than "hype."

Also, if the latest Car and Driver pricing estimates are relatively accurate, then the cost of a 2013 GT500 with the SVT Trak Pack option will be materially more expensive than the cost of a base 2013 ZL1 which comes standard with the track ready cooling systems. You appear to think that the track ready GT500 and ZL1 will cost the same, and I'm not so sure. Time will tell.

I think that the 2013 GT500 will be fine car. However, I admit that since the 1960s I have generally preferred GM styling to Ford styling, and styling, along with performance and value are the factors that are the most important to me when purchasing a vehicle. I do not purchase vehicles based strictly on performance alone. If the performance and price between two vehicles is relatively close, I will purchase the vehicle which I think has the better styling.

I agree. 100%, that's why I own a Camaro. But, now that I have one it's a bit pointless to purchase another one, so may end up going to the dark side, so I admit I may be leaning more towards the Mustang only becuase I've had my fill with car mod'ding projects and thinking the Mustang may be the stock way to go. Muuuuaaaaahhhhhh......... :fighting0040:

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I think that we can have a good time in friendly back and forth (informative) debates if everyone just keeps and open mind and try harder to read/understand the other people's points and points of view. Often time, guys (including me at times) just get overly defensive and get close-minded. Some just like to post argumentative points just to post.

I beleive that's the whole purpose of a good forum. Differing points of view can be valuable to consumers and the vendors of products. If consumers provided honest feedback (which is priceless), and vendors listen consumers and vendors both win.

[Ltespd]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

If the performance and price between two vehicles is relatively close, I will purchase the vehicle which I think has the better styling.

Me too.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by Ltespd

Me too.

Hahahaha...... that's so funny. I just finished my post saying I'll just buy a 2013 Mustang GT500 to balance things out and keep as my stock racecar.

That Saleen is sick.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Again, I think you may be drawing improper inferences.

How is stating that a vehicle with an IRS and Magnetic Ride Control will likely be easier to handle on rough surfaces than a vehicle without an IRS and without Magnetic Ride Control like saying that "all live axle cars are jumping around all over the place and are uncontrollable?"

It might be helpful to pause and think a bit about one's logic and reasoning before posting.

I think that statement has great merit when talking about street comfort on very bumpy roads. On the other hand, talking about lap times and rough roads. . . I don't do the whole tokyo drift street rally thing and I've never run into a pothole at mid-ohio. Another interesting point of debate is how quickly the sub-60k base price prediction is gaining traction here while some still defer to Al O's comments about 0-60 time. If you're going to accept the estimated price tag, shouldn't the performance figures be accepted as well? They are all just estimates after all. That's not necessarily about your statements, just an observation in general.

[72MachOne99GT]

Just throwing this out there...and as it's my opinion, it won't matter squat to any of you lol

I think the GT500 starts at 52,499, outruns the ZL1 to 60, and through the quarter, and with the SVT package, outruns it at 9/10 tracks...

Now, before you get up in arms..listen for one more second.

Nobody is going to like their cars less. I own a '99GT...not quite the fastest car by any stretch of the imagination, does it mean I'd take a LS1 F-Body over it? Nope.

[Drake Heminger]

But u gotta admit the Camaro does look better than the Mustang though