Electric Vehicles

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by olrocker

The VAST majority - I will argue well over 75% globally - who own EVs right now are those who purposefully intended to seek them out and went out of their way to learn about them because they were interested in them or they wanted them.

These are all people, who, of course, are going to learn all about them, take serious interest in their daily operation, and have some at-least basic knowledge of what makes them different from ICE gas.

The nurse with 2 kids working 3 12+ hour shifts every week? She needs 4 wheels. That turn forward. That is the extent of her knowledge, interest, and desire to learn about EVs or cars in general.

She knows when the gauge on the dash for her gas car reads close to ”E” that it’s time to put gas in, and will pump it till it stops. Which will show at “F”.

If she gets back into her car and it reads “80%”, she’ll say it’s not full and needs to top it off.

Trust me. I’m not exaggerating or talking out of my backside here.

He has a point.

I AM an engineer so I get the whole 80% thing but in my engineer's mind I'm thinking they should have made "full" (100% on the gauge) only 80 % of battery capacity. People fill up and owner and battery are happy.

They should also tell people that you can fill it up to 120% (100% of capacity) on occasion but you shouldn't do it too often as its not good for the battery. That way the nurse, and my wife, are not confused.

Telling even me, who understands it, that I should only fill up to 80% elicits a "Then why the f*%k don't you just call 80% 100%?" response. Telling my wife that you should only fill up to 80% elicits the question "Why?". When explained she asks the legitimate question "If it's bad for the battery why do they let you do it?"... which may be the best question of them all.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

He has a point.

I AM an engineer so I get the whole 80% thing but in my engineer's mind I'm thinking they should have made "full" (100% on the gauge) only 80 % of battery capacity. People fill up and owner and battery are happy.

They should also tell people that you can fill it up to 120% (100% of capacity) on occasion but you shouldn't do it too often as its not good for the battery. That way the nurse, and my wife, are not confused.

Telling even me, who understands it, that I should only fill up to 80% elicits a "Then why the f*%k don't you just call 80% 100%?" response. Telling my wife that you should only fill up to 80% elicits the question "Why?". When explained she asks the legitimate question "If it's bad for the battery why do they let you do it?"... which may be the best question of them all.

EVs biggest Achilles heel has been the "Range"...The more and the longer range the better...To get maximum advertised range and calm range anxiety, 100% charge is required...doable, but not recommenced...doable but the last 20% requires more, and slower charging time.

That is not a user friendly formula for widespread adoption, coming out with a bait and switch range right out of the gate.

But, like any other glitch with EVs, you're better off just ignoring it for the greater good....lol

[Capricio]

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/15/gms-...-comments.html

• Queen Mary rolls back expectations
• GM’s target of being capable of producing 1 million all-electric vehicles in North America by the end of 2025 is heavily in doubt.
• The production capacity goal was one of the last standing EV targets GM hadn’t lowered or withdrawn amid slower-than-expected demand for EVs.
• More details about the automaker’s EV plans could come when GM reports second-quarter results on July 23.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

He has a point.

I AM an engineer so I get the whole 80% thing but in my engineer's mind I'm thinking they should have made "full" (100% on the gauge) only 80 % of battery capacity. People fill up and owner and battery are happy.

They should also tell people that you can fill it up to 120% (100% of capacity) on occasion but you shouldn't do it too often as its not good for the battery. That way the nurse, and my wife, are not confused.

Telling even me, who understands it, that I should only fill up to 80% elicits a "Then why the f*%k don't you just call 80% 100%?" response. Telling my wife that you should only fill up to 80% elicits the question "Why?". When explained she asks the legitimate question "If it's bad for the battery why do they let you do it?"... which may be the best question of them all.

Thank you.

That is exactly what I was saying.

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

He has a point.

I AM an engineer so I get the whole 80% thing but in my engineer's mind I'm thinking they should have made "full" (100% on the gauge) only 80 % of battery capacity. People fill up and owner and battery are happy.

They should also tell people that you can fill it up to 120% (100% of capacity) on occasion but you shouldn't do it too often as its not good for the battery. That way the nurse, and my wife, are not confused.

Telling even me, who understands it, that I should only fill up to 80% elicits a "Then why the f*%k don't you just call 80% 100%?" response. Telling my wife that you should only fill up to 80% elicits the question "Why?". When explained she asks the legitimate question "If it's bad for the battery why do they let you do it?"... which may be the best question of them all.

I had to look up a better answer than what is easily repeated. I found it.
First of all it depends on battery type = chemistry. You are aware the Iron battery cars are suggested to go ahead and charge to 100% ?
The traditional battery I have is suggested to 80% unless driving it soon. It has to do with battery degradation if stored at a very high or very low state of charge. I found a chart but I don't know exactly what type of cells it references or if improvements have been made as Tesla keeps improving cells even mid year cycles. It does show how you don't want to leave your car highly charged in the desert heat or here in California it's been in the 100s for a few weeks. I consider all the available data and know many people won't follow the guidance and there is still only a few percent degradation in all batteries on average in a few years.
I liked to know what's going on so I can avoid wear similar to how you decide when to change your oil.

[crazedmodder]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Hopefully you’re not an engineer. Then maybe olrocker might actually believe what you say.

I'm Schrodinger's engineer. To my mechanical engineering friend I'm not an engineer. To me, eh, it depends on the day.

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

He has a point.

I AM an engineer so I get the whole 80% thing but in my engineer's mind I'm thinking they should have made "full" (100% on the gauge) only 80 % of battery capacity. People fill up and owner and battery are happy.

They should also tell people that you can fill it up to 120% (100% of capacity) on occasion but you shouldn't do it too often as its not good for the battery. That way the nurse, and my wife, are not confused.

Telling even me, who understands it, that I should only fill up to 80% elicits a "Then why the f*%k don't you just call 80% 100%?" response. Telling my wife that you should only fill up to 80% elicits the question "Why?". When explained she asks the legitimate question "If it's bad for the battery why do they let you do it?"... which may be the best question of them all.

Ultimately 80% vs 100% vs >100% choices and which is the best seems to be a matter of preference, like whether a tiptronic style shifter should shift up when pushed forward or shift down.

Although I can understand why people think it is stupid, and may find it more logical to do a choice between 100% and >100% instead of 80% and 100%, but I personally find more logic in using the 80% and 100%. The car is designed around using that 100% charge, and warranties and expected lifetimes of the products should be based on that. Now you have the option of limiting charge to 80% to get better performance (at least charging wise) and better longevity.

Given that iOS and Android both use the 80% limit terminology now, I'd say it's as close to a standard that we will get (for lithium batteries at least) and I think it would be worse to change it.

[snizzle]

Again, the general consumer doesn't care about any of this and wants a basic appliance that's easy to use and fuel. BEVs have a ways to go on that front but they'll get there (even for folks that aren't engineers or former GM employees), as well as the infrastructure to support them.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by olrocker

The VAST majority - I will argue well over 75% globally - who own EVs right now are those who purposefully intended to seek them out and went out of their way to learn about them because they were interested in them or they wanted them.

I thought this was only about America?

In reality most people drive them because they are cheap to run and pollute less, business users are generally buying because of the tax breaks.
Very few of these buyers are "car guys" or they would be selecting their vehicle on dynamic ability, reputation and all the rest of the reasons we bought Camaros.

As for the 80/100/120% battery argument no EV offers 100% of battery capacity all of the time.
A bit is held back for remote deployment when you "run out of fuel" and some is kept back so you dont notice your range reducing as the battery gets older.

Again, Im really sorry to weigh in with actual personal experience on these things but no-one anywhere struggles with whether they should charge their car to 80% or 100%.

[Malbjey]

People can ABSOLUTELY adapt to filling their EV to 80% (versus 100%). I can't believe some of you are making the argument Americans are too stupid to understand or quickly learn this. Come on.


We already deal with whether or not our cars should use 87, 89, 91 or 93 gas, or diesel. Should that be standardized too because some people are too dumb to read the manual?


We already have dealt with an explosion of touch screen infotainment systems over the past 10 to 15 years. Guess what? We adapted for that too. We weren't too stupid to understand how to touch a screen to change a radio station versus using a dial or button. Not to mention how every manufacturer has a different infotainment setup. So if you buy a Chevy, the system is completely different from the Ford you came from. We adapt to that too.



You guys saying people are too dumb for 80% charging are just nitpicking or you really have a terrible opinion of your fellow Americans intelligence.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Malbjey

People can ABSOLUTELY adapt to filling their EV to 80% (versus 100%). I can't believe some of you are making the argument Americans are too stupid to understand or quickly learn this. Come on.

Nobody is saying people are too stupid... actually they might be, but nobody is saying that here. The point is that if you tell the average person they should only fill their battery to 80% they are going to think that is dumb. And rightly so.

We already deal with whether or not our cars should use 87, 89, 91 or 93 gas, or diesel. Should that be standardized too because some people are too dumb to read the manual?

Do you really think anybody reads the manual?

Somebody tells Nurse Nancy what grade gas to put in her car and she does that no problem. Now tell her she should only fill her tank to 80% and she'll be like

We already have dealt with an explosion of touch screen infotainment systems over the past 10 to 15 years. Guess what? We adapted for that too. We weren't too stupid to understand how to touch a screen to change a radio station versus using a dial or button. Not to mention how every manufacturer has a different infotainment setup. So if you buy a Chevy, the system is completely different from the Ford you came from. We adapt to that too.

I am highly confident there is only a small percentage of people who know anything about their infotainment system beyond the bare minimum to make it kind of do what they want. And to further that point, even professional car reviewers routinely complain about the complexity and awkwardness of some systems. So if you're using that as an example of how manufacturers can add stupid, needless complexity to a vehicle and people will adapt, it's a bad one.

You guys saying people are too dumb for 80% charging are just nitpicking or you really have a terrible opinion of your fellow Americans intelligence.

Although it may well be true, no one here said people are too dumb for that. But for sure the dumb ones are the people who build things and then put goofy rules on its use. Rules that most people are going to think don't make much sense.

[Malbjey]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Nobody is saying people are too stupid... actually they might be, but nobody is saying that here. The point is that if you tell the average person they should only fill their battery to 80% they are going to think that is dumb. And rightly so.




Do you really think anybody reads the manual?

Somebody tells Nurse Nancy what grade gas to put in her car and she does that no problem. Now tell her she should only fill her tank to 80% and she'll be like




I am highly confident there is only a small percentage of people who know anything about their infotainment system beyond the bare minimum to make it kind of do what they want. And to further that point, even professional car reviewers routinely complain about the complexity and awkwardness of some systems. So if you're using that as an example of how manufacturers can add stupid, needless complexity to a vehicle and people will adapt, it's a bad one.




Although it may well be true, no one here said people are too dumb for that. But for sure the dumb ones are the people who build things and then put goofy rules on its use. Rules that most people are going to think don't make much sense.

The thing is, people are already following rules when it comes to what octane/type of gas to put in their ICE cars. Putting in the wrong fuel can be even more of a disaster/headache than letting your EV charge past 80%. If someone can't understand 'the battery is designed to charge quickly up to 80%' then they should be having serious problems understanding other aspects of operating a motor vehicle in general.



Plus we don't know what the future holds for batteries. There may be a point where certain manufacturers provide batteries that can easily and quickly charge to 100%, while others are still stuck with quick charges to 80%. How is that any different than someone buying a new car that requires 91 fuel, when their previous car required 87 fuel or diesel? You learn and adapt.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Malbjey

We already deal with whether or not our cars should use 87, 89, 91 or 93 gas, or diesel. Should that be standardized too because some people are too dumb to read the manual?

In IT we have a term, RTFM, because nobody does.

[Martinjlm]

When the raging argument around EVs is about whether the owners will understand how and/or why to charge to 80% I can’t help but think that EVs have come a long way.

In the meantime, millions of Americans and many more millions of Asians and Europeans are managing along just fine. Go home…plug it in…forget about it.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

When the raging argument around EVs is about whether the owners will understand how and/or why to charge to 80% I can’t help but think that EVs have come a long way.

In the meantime, millions of Americans and many more millions of Asians and Europeans are managing along just fine. Go home…plug it in…forget about it.

It’ll all be a moot point when CAFE is rolled back significantly, domestic oil production goes through the roof, and gas is $2.00/gal