Electric Vehicles

[Martinjlm]

You can get a luxury SUV EV for under $15,000 but there’s a catch…

The ultimate “buyer beware” scenario. You can get the $70k-ish Fisker Ocean for under $15,000 but there will be no warranty, no servicing dealer outlets and probably no parts support. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln…

It’s all about liquidating the assets of bankrupt Fisker Automotive. I’ve seen where one YouTuber has purchased one. But he is a guy that is known for being very hands on in converting ICE vehicles to EV and the reverse, so who knows what he has up his sleeve for this one.

The biggest issues with these have been in the operation of the software. For that reason alone I wouldn’t touch this with a 10-ft pole unless I was thinking of basically hermetically sealing it and trotting it out 20 years from now and offering it up as one of a kind, zero mileage, etc etc.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

There is a lot of confusion surrounding EV range, which is no surprise really. For example, I don't know the exact numbers, but the Tesla Model Y long range is rated at 320 miles I believe. I don't know exactly how they determine that range, but I do believe it includes a hefty mixture of city driving and or low speed driving. That's all fine, but I think potential owners also need to know that that range is cut pretty significantly if you hit the highway for a long trip and especially if you are going to be hitting speeds of 75 - 80 or more MPH. That alone typically will reduce range by at least 20% from the stated 320 miles of range. Throw some hot or cold temps on top of that and now your range is reduced to maybe 220 miles or less.

See what actual owners are saying. Most are saying real world mileage is around 200 - 250 or so depending on other factors. Could be even less than that if the weather is especially harsh or better under ideal conditions. https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY..._model_y_long/

I'm not framing this as an attack on EVs. I just think EV mileage ratings should change to be more like a gas powered vehicle. I don't have the solution for that, but I just wonder if it would make more sense to have two or three ratings. Perhaps a "max" range, a "city" or "mixed" range, and then finally a "highway" range. Other factors would still lower these numbers, but at least then it would be more in line with ICE ratings, which we are all used to.

The attached image is what the EPA shows for the Model Y Long Range. Who the heck even knows that this means? Then it says "330 miles of total range", but that is missleading (not intentionally...at least I hope) for those that don't understand this, and I'm confident in saying most people would not understand this. This needs to be simpler.

MPGe has been a head scratcher since the first Prius. MPGe means miles per gallon equivalent. The original idea was to provide a way for buyers to compare hybrids / EVs to gasoline / diesel powered vehicles at an MPG level. It basically says (using the label you showed) the energy required to power the Model Y Long Range on the fuel economy cycle is the equivalent to the amount of energy it would take a gas powered vehicle in the same class if that gas vehicle averaged 122 miles per gallon of gas.

As for how the range is calculated, here’s the two processes used. Manufacturer’s choice on which method. All testing on dyno.

• Battery is charged to 100%
• It is driven on the city cycle until it comes to a complete stop and the distance is recorded
• The battery is charged to 100%
• The vehicle is driven on the highway circuit until it stops. And the miles driven is recorded.
• Or the automaker can opt to use the multi-cycle test. This is done with (4) city cycles, (2) highway cycles, and (2) constant speed cycles.
• An adjustment factor is applied to account for real-world driving issues such as more aggressive driving, HVAC usage, etc. The most typical adjustment factor is 0.7.
• To get to the label numbers a 55 / 45 city highway split is assumed. Take the test city cycle average x .7 x .55 and add the highway cycle average x .7 x .45

EVs and hybrids operate on the opposite paradigm from ICE vehicles. They get better fuel economy in city driving, worse fuel economy in highway driving.
In 8 months with a Tesla Model Y we get pretty close to the stated range in the city and about 20% lower than the stated range on the highway, depending on road speed. At 80 mph and above the range drops off fast. This only matters for us on long trips since just driving around town, when all is said and done we just plug it in and begin the next day.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The biggest issues with these have been in the operation of the software. For that reason alone I wouldn’t touch this with a 10-ft pole unless I was thinking of basically hermetically sealing it and trotting it out 20 years from now and offering it up as one of a kind, zero mileage, etc etc.

You can also roll the dice now with a "refurbished" Cadillac Lemonique with a steep discount. Might even include a warranty.

My Lyriq has basic issues - the interiors are loose, everything rattles and squeaks when driving on any road less than butter smooth. The charge port door is sagging about 1/2 inch, and let’s water in every time it rains, the cameras don’t work, the driver assist doesn’t work, the emergency braking brakes for no reason and gives my constant headache, the screen (the full this by the steering and in the center) has gone blank a few times and has had to be fixed, the screen is not misaligned with the graphics on it. I can keep going on and on. And I have had the car for less than 5k miles.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

You can also roll the dice now with a "refurbished" Cadillac Lemonique with a steep discount. Might even include a warranty.

My boss has had her Lyriq for about 7 months. Says it’s the best vehicle she’s ever owned. Different folks different strokes.

[90503]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

Nobody really wants EVs here. We've sold 1 Blazer EV and have one sitting here rotting on the lot because no one wants it. We also have a Silverado EV RST that no one wants.

GM has tried forcing more allocations on us but we keep turning them down because we know that they'll just sit on the lot racking up floorplan interest. No thanks, Jeff.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You can get a luxury SUV EV for under $15,000 but there’s a catch…

The ultimate “buyer beware” scenario. You can get the $70k-ish Fisker Ocean for under $15,000 but there will be no warranty, no servicing dealer outlets and probably no parts support.

That would be another perfect project for Rich Rebuilds, the guy who took the flood-totaled Tesla Model S, gutted it, and put the Camaro LS3 and a 6 speed stick in it.

Then you have Plenty of affordable parts and support

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

That would be another perfect project for Rich Rebuilds, the guy who took the flood-totaled Tesla Model S, gutted it, and put the GTO LS2 and and a 6 speed stick in it.

Then you have Plenty of affordable parts and support

When I said I knew of a YouTuber who bought one it was Rich Rebuilds. He paid $10,000.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by olrocker

That would be another perfect project for Rich Rebuilds, the guy who took the flood-totaled Tesla Model S, gutted it, and put the GTO LS2 and and a 6 speed stick in it.

Did he give any before vs after weight comparison?

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Did he give any before vs after weight comparison?

In the second video, you can jump to the 33:14 mark where he discusses weight.

In a nutshell it’s this: the factory OEM Model S was 4953 lbs
After the LS3 conversion: 3732 lbs

https://youtu.be/Odq9E92DAJk?si=IHlS3wvSLKZL5PIS

https://youtu.be/eaHMHy8d6Wg?si=8W5vNc9beq3XD6em

I was mistaken - I mentioned earlier it is a GTO LS2, he used a 5th Gen Camaro LS3

[Capricio]

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/07...t-back-to-ice/

“There is still a lot of uncertainty on volumes and the market’s development,” Favre told Automotive News. “The shift to electric was imposed by regulators, it didn’t come because of demand deriving from consumers.”

I know... Jim, I know that EV sales are still going up... but, as with any upward trend that approaches it's apex, the growth is slowing. I think it will stall, not accelerate, soon. Neither of us can predict the future, and we can both cherry pick our data, but I think the trending data is there. If/when the government steps back, either the Chinese flood the EV market or consumers go back to ICE/Hybrid.

[90503]

Just anecdotally, my belief is that here in sunny Cali (where 1/3 of all EV sales nationwide..??...have occurred) anyone who wanted an EV, primarily Teslas, already has one, and is able to charge at home. There are a lot of driveways and garages still that have not gone EV, even though EVs have been available for many years now. Anyone with a driveway and garage likely has more than one or two vehicles, yet still no EV.

Demand, novelty, boutique impulse, virtue signaling, subsidies, incentives, etc., has topped out/leveled off. Just a thought.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/07...t-back-to-ice/





I know... Jim, I know that EV sales are still going up... but, as with any upward trend that approaches it's apex, the growth is slowing. I think it will stall, not accelerate, soon. Neither of us can predict the future, and we can both cherry pick our data, but I think the trending data is there. If/when the government steps back, either the Chinese flood the EV market or consumers go back to ICE/Hybrid.

Nothing really new here. In Europe sales are definitely driven by both regulations and incentives. In the US it’s more organic with some lift from incentives. Most of the EVs on the market today do not qualify for federal incentives, yet they still sell. State incentives vary state-to-state.

The rate of growth of sales is definitely slower than OEMs were projecting when they were all tripping over each other a couple years ago to announce increasingly aggressive sales targets. Especially the automakers that were saying “100% EV by <pick a year>”. Those automakers are definitely rolling back their claims and delaying product launches. What they are NOT doing is canceling products.

As I’ve said before and will continue to say, getting any state (California) or country (Canada) to 100% EV by 2035 is not feasible. Until there are solutions for multi-family dwellings (they are coming..I’ve seen a few approaches) and better solutions for long distance heavy towing (campers, towing a second vehicle for vacation usage, towing cars to car shows) you can never get to 100%. Getting to 30% by 2030 is a good bet. Getting to 50% maybe even 70% by 2035 is possible, provided cost and pricing comes down a bit and model coverage improves. There is evidence that both of those things are happening. How fast they happen is a whole different thing.

In the meantime, we have this data…

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by genxer

It's really not to late for the EV masterminds to change tack and plan for battery swap stations, for the wealthier half of EV'ers.

I was reading about EU's new Battery Replacement mandate that requires all electronic devices to have a battery that is easily replaceable by the owner by 2027. While I was reading about this, I found that there is also consideration about making a mandate requiring the same thing for EVs. If this comes to fruition and automakers are forced to design vehicles and battery packs to be easily removable, you may see battery swap stations similar to Nio's become more of a main stream idea.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Nothing really new here. In Europe sales are definitely driven by both regulations and incentives. In the US it’s more organic with some lift from incentives. Most of the EVs on the market today do not qualify for federal incentives, yet they still sell. State incentives vary state-to-state.

The rate of growth of sales is definitely slower than OEMs were projecting when they were all tripping over each other a couple years ago to announce increasingly aggressive sales targets. Especially the automakers that were saying “100% EV by <pick a year>”. Those automakers are definitely rolling back their claims and delaying product launches. What they are NOT doing is canceling products.

As I’ve said before and will continue to say, getting any state (California) or country (Canada) to 100% EV by 2035 is not feasible. Until there are solutions for multi-family dwellings (they are coming..I’ve seen a few approaches) and better solutions for long distance heavy towing (campers, towing a second vehicle for vacation usage, towing cars to car shows) you can never get to 100%. Getting to 30% by 2030 is a good bet. Getting to 50% maybe even 70% by 2035 is possible, provided cost and pricing comes down a bit and model coverage improves. There is evidence that both of those things are happening. How fast they happen is a whole different thing.

In the meantime, we have this data…

Well, I'm no math wiz, but those four states and D.C account for 103.3% of EV sales for Q3 of 2023?...lol. All the other 46 states sold none? or got their money back?...lol...
What am I missing here?...lol

"Light truck sales are 74% of the EV market"...???