Check your cats...

[Matt@KB]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

First off, I think this gets a bit blown out of proportion in that in terms of warranty claims, there has been nothing unusual with the Camaro as far as Kooks cats. I have seen 3-4 fail in several hundred sold..and pretty much every one of them was supercharged. The bottom line is a supercharger adds a bunch of heat to the exhaust equation if not properly tuned. If you run a supercharged set up with cats, it has to be tuned almost perfectly once it gets over 600 HP. When I say that, I mean that a properly tuned supercharged car will have exhaust gas temps similar to stock. However a improperly tuned car will have exhaust gas temps hot enough to make the manifolds glow. In general cats do not just fail..there has to be a cause..and normally the issue is the tune. The problem is, tuning is is a black science most people do not understand. There also multiple ways when tuning to accomplish the same thing. I recently saw a tune someone paid $600 for from a supposedly reputable tuner that took supposedly a day to do. When compared to the stock tune, less than 10 tables were played with, and the VE table was not touched. The car ran okay, but it had a very lazy tune in it that was not all it could be or worth $600 in labor. Whenever a cat fails, I tell people to have their tune checked because the cat failure is an effect of a cause. However then most people argue their tuner is gods gift to tuners, and blame the cat.

Also I want to stress cat failures are not limited to Kooks. They are rare to begin with, but we have them with every manufacturer's headers we sell.

In my personal experiance, I have a GTO and a Camaro both supercharged at that 600 HP level, and I have never had a cat failure..mine look fine. However my tunes have also been absolutly dialed in.

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Guess there's a lot of lousy tuners out there because everyones cats are melting. But, then I guess it's not that difficult to bolt on some parts vs tuning.

Well said. I agree 100%. Again, 20 years of supercharging Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mazda vehicles (6-26 PSI, 300-1000 RWHP) and never experienced an OEM cat failure on a Kenne Bell tuned supercharged car.
Just “bolting on parts” can be detrimental to CAT reliability. Especially cool air kits that don’t include accurate re-tuning or 50 State certification. Supercharged vehicles undoubtedly see more cat failures because the possibilities of tuning errors and issues from more assorted and/or non 50 State legal aftermarket components (larger injectors, varying fuel pressures, regulators, meters, CAK, throttle bodies etc.). Imagine the combinations and tuning expertise required to make this all function and one begins to appreciate the need for the qualified reputable tuner.

[Matt@KB]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

I have to disagree with your assessment, As a Tuner with 30 years experience and Last year Had an Advanced Training Class with Greg Bannish, that it is NOT always in the Tune, We covered this extensively in my Class.

If you put 10 lbs. of crap in a 5 lb. bag it is going to break.

The currently available cats can NOT handle the Exhaust Gasses from a supercharged 6.2 liter Engine

Put 10 Liters of Air through a 6 Liter Hole and it is going to over heat, melt and fail which if left unchecked will Fail a Piston in the engine.

Ted.

I’d love to have a copy of those papers from Greg Bannish. Particularly the flow, HP, temperature and reliability testing data, if any exists. Before Kenne Bell drops 10 lbs in a bag, we test the bag at 30 lbs.
I can assure you that your “10L of air through a 6L hole” theory is merely your opinion and not based on factual data. My personal 6.2 700HP Camaro and the 900HP 9 sec. ST Motorsports Camaro both DO handle the exhaust gases with ease and without failure. I ask again for you to publish some credible test data.
And please explain why the “pistons will fail.” These all encompassing warnings of doom?
They haven’t, even on my 600-1000HP vehicles.
Also, you persist in falsely assuming that the “6L hole” CAT is maxed out. It is NOT 9 sec 140 MPH through stock cats from a tuner/car owner. You are wrong. The dyno, flow bench and experience clearly prove it. And think about this: All those turbocharged and supercharged Mustangs, Shelby’s, Corvettes, Lightning’s, Mercedes, Buicks, BMW’s etc, etc, etc. If forced induction and a little extra heat was detrimental to cats, then what are all these OEM’s thinking? NO way CARB or EPA would tolerate premature cat failures nor would the OEM’s risk it. Of course Kenne Bell, the OEM’s and all the other experienced tuners on this thread could all be wrong.

[camaro1]

i dont think this is about oem cats at all, unless i missed something,, i think the whole thing started with the KOOKS and ARH small bullet cats that come with their header systems. i have seen them burn out on N/A 500+ hp corvettes already in less than 10,000 miles with a perfect tune. it just seems these small Bullet cats are not as robust as the factory oem cats.

[JANNETTYRACING]

To Matt@KB

I use AFM-1000 Calibrated daily
All this discussion is about Aftermarket cats all or your discussion is about Factory Cats
Apples and oranges.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

I use AFM-1000 Calibrated daily
All this discussion is about Aftermarket cats all or your discussion is about Factory Cats
Apples and oranges.

I think his point is if OEM cats can hold up, then why not the expensive HF cats?

[camaro1]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

I think his point is if OEM cats can hold up, then why not the expensive HF cats?

the kooks and arh high flow bullets are actually cheap cats compared to oem, also oem uses 4 cats compared to 2 very small bullets that come with the longtubes

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by camaro1

the kooks and arh high flow bullets are actually cheap cats compared to oem, also oem uses 4 cats compared to 2 very small bullets that come with the longtubes

As a consumer I don't really think anyone cares if their big, small, one or two. If you're going to sell them, make sure they can hold up as good or better than the OEM versions.
Still not understanding the logic of "HIGH FLOW" CAT's not flowing enough and blocking up, regardless of all the nonesense I'm reading about, tune, temperatures, AFR, lean vs rich, Z06 vs ZR1 vs ....., etc.... So what?

I don't care about the excuses? No vehicle is ever going to be tuned perfectly, and therefore at the end of the day the manufacturer of the product that doesn't hold is ultimately responsible. Nobody wants to waste their money on something they know won't hold up. Just make a better product, call it what you want (stage1, 2 or 3) and charge accordingly.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

I think his point is if OEM cats can hold up, then why not the expensive HF cats?

That is just it, the HF cats are not expensive Factory cats are just call your local dealer and make sure your sitting down.

Ted.

[TCAT]

It seems that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Now, I was told by my shop that my car is being held back from making more power due to the stock cats restriction. So, I decided I wanted to go with high flow cats so I can get it retuned and increase boost. However, I keep hearing the stories about high flow cats not being able to withstand a boosted application for an extended period of time (and yes, the life-span may depend on the tune, but they still shouldn't be failing). So, I don't want to install and pay money for high flows that will just get destroyed anyway, and have to replace them all the time. So, mid pipes without cats would be a great idea since it flows well, I won't have to worry about anything being broken or replaced, and I can retune for more power with my boost application. However, I don't think I'm willing to go mid pipes without cats because it's illegal. High flows may not be "smog" legal (which I'm fine with), but mid pipes without cats is actually illegal, and not sure I want to take the risk of getting fined or having my car towed to the impound (even if it's a small chance), which would piss me off more than anything.

Then, there is a vendor that says the stock OEM cats flow quite well (I'm not saying they don't because I don't have first hand experience, so I'm not qualified to say) and can stand the abuse of boosted applications. If the stock cats flowed that well, I would hope my shop would tell me that it's possible to get above my current power level with my turbo without purchasing high flow cats or just mid pipes, and I believe they would. So, I guess what I'm saying here, is damn it.....lol.

It's confusing because you try to sift through the valid answers from the invalid answers. I'm not sure what the best option for my car is anymore.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by TCAT

It seems that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Now, I was told by my shop that my car is being held back from making more power due to the stock cats restriction. So, I decided I wanted to go with high flow cats so I can get it retuned and increase boost. However, I keep hearing the stories about high flow cats not being able to withstand a boosted application for an extended period of time (and yes, the life-span may depend on the tune, but they still shouldn't be failing). So, I don't want to install and pay money for high flows that will just get destroyed anyway, and have to replace them all the time. So, mid pipes without cats would be a great idea since it flows well, I won't have to worry about anything being broken or replaced, and I can retune for more power with my boost application. However, I don't think I'm willing to go mid pipes without cats because it's illegal. High flows may not be "smog" legal (which I'm fine with), but mid pipes without cats is actually illegal, and not sure I want to take the risk of getting fined or having my car towed to the impound (even if it's a small chance), which would piss me off more than anything.

Then, there is a vendor that says the stock OEM cats flow quite well (I'm not saying they don't because I don't have first hand experience, so I'm not qualified to say) and can stand the abuse of boosted applications. If the stock cats flowed that well, I would hope my shop would tell me that it's possible to get above my current power level with my turbo without purchasing high flow cats or just mid pipes, and I believe they would. So, I guess what I'm saying here, is damn it.....lol.

It's confusing because you try to sift through the valid answers from the invalid answers. I'm not sure what the best option for my car is anymore.

Everything is subject to interpretation.

All part of the Modding experience.

Dyno testing will back up your Shops Claims.

Anything other than factory cats is illegal for on road use by the letter of the law, every state is different level of enforcement.

Ted.

[TCAT]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Everything is subject to interpretation.

All part of the Modding experience.

Dyno testing will back up your Shops Claims.

Anything other than factory cats is illegal for on road use by the letter of the law, every state is different level of enforcement.

Ted.

That's definitely true.

I'm going to have to link into Californias' Law in regards to High Flow Cats versus Mid Pipes without Cats. I thought only mid pipes were flat out illegal and had a fine to go along with it. Then, high flows were just smog illegal, but didn't have any fine associated with their use. I'll check into it. Thanks.

I may just decide to stick with the stock cats and be happy with the power.

[69 Rebel]

This is a long shot, but does anyone have dyno numbers on Hi Flow Cats vs OEM Cats?
Heck if its only a matter of 1-5 HP loss, id be willing to throw on my OEM cats back on.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by 69 Rebel

This is a long shot, but does anyone have dyno numbers on Hi Flow Cats vs OEM Cats?
Heck if its only a matter of 1-5 HP loss, id be willing to throw on my OEM cats back on.

12-18 NA

[69 Rebel]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

12-18 NA

There goes that idea