Sat in Camaro today, some disappointment

[Freedom of Speech]

Let me be perfectly clear. If we have another thread like the V6 thread we just cleaned up, people will be banned.

So people can't voice their own opinions anymore? Is that what you're saying? Do you just ban everyone that disagrees with you?

[SummoneR]

Originally Posted by Moose

You're thoughts and opinions are welcome from this, "fanboy".



The Camaro you sat in is not "production". Now I don't know if those issue's you have will be addressed in the actual production model, we'll see.

Assuming they remain the same, so be it. Personally, there are a few minor things I'd have done differently, or would have liked to seen done differently. But as I've heard Scott say on numerous occassions, "You're not going to please everyone."

Personally, I very happy with the overall results. And I'm happy GM brought the Camaro back!

So, yes, I'm proud to say, "I am a Camaro/GM fanboy", who drinks the "koolaid" - but I am still able to be objective, and I'm still able to accept and respect others complaints.

I agree totally. For a first year production of the 5th Gen this thing is amazing!!

The reason it has back seat... probably for insurance reasons... cheaper that way. Or for little kids. I'm a bachelor... I'm cool with no seats in the back, not like I will be back there as a passenger anyway.

[SummoneR]

Originally Posted by Freedom of Speech

So people can't voice their own opinions anymore? Is that what you're saying? Do you just ban everyone that disagrees with you?

Nice! who ever this is. It appears they created another account to express his/her freedom of speech. AWESOME!

What good is freedom of speech, if we're afraid to use it, or in this case hide behind a mask?

:flag2:

[DDustiNN]

Originally Posted by SummoneR

Nice! who ever this is. It appears they created another account to express his/her freedom of speech. AWESOME!

What good is freedom of speech, if we're afraid to use it, or in this case hide behind a mask?

:flag2:

I was just thinking the same thing! This is the kind of person that will talk sh!t all day long on the internet, but then when in a real-life situation they will avoid any type of confrontation. Gotta love that, lol...

[zebra]

Originally Posted by Freedom of Speech

So people can't voice their own opinions anymore? Is that what you're saying? Do you just ban everyone that disagrees with you?

Originally Posted by SummoneR

Nice! who ever this is. It appears they created another account to express his/her freedom of speech. AWESOME!

What good is freedom of speech, if we're afraid to use it, or in this case hide behind a mask?

:flag2:

if you actually read through that thread, you'll see why those two got banned. they did nothing but say condescending things towards other members - all of which started when they commented (in a thread about how the V6 was very impressive) that the V6 owners would later wish they'd bought a V8.

just a note... if you are previous member using a new account to address this situation, the mods can still find your original account.

[OUR72GTO]

Originally Posted by Freedom of Speech

So people can't voice their own opinions anymore? Is that what you're saying? Do you just ban everyone that disagrees with you?

I hope they ban anyone who turns EVERY subject into trash.

[Z/28orSs]

Originally Posted by fastball

I understand what you are saying, and belive me, I will be buying one so I'm not being hypocritical.....

What I am saying is that EVERY car GM builds should not have a single compromise. And if costs can't be kept down, perhaps it's a good thing for GM to go ch. 11 to get their costs in line with competitors which would otherwise be impossible with union contracts and such.

If costs were in line with competitors, I firmly believe you could have developed the Camaro at the same or LESS R&D funding than you did, and at the same time have the superior chasis it has, the syling, everything the car has already, but with greater attention to detail (better visors with lights, softer IP plastic, easy entry configurations for both seats, tucked away the wire loom for the trunk lid, and other small details) and still kept the sticker price where it is..... and the company make money..... all at the same time.

It is very apparent GM's cost structure is still far out of line with competitors.

you may be on to something BUT then again you not because what my Understanding was That JAPAN gives funding for inhouse transportation so to make a long story easy and short there gov't eats some of the production cost so you might say thay have an Unfare advantage
IMHO to even it out there should be a tax on buying hondas or toYTCrap in USA

[Z/28orSs]

not to be a jerk or anything but y are soooo many drivers today trying to have sex with the ip i understand you spend most of your time there (But y are u looking at it and not the road are you that asshole who hit me in the back because you were looking at the dash?) im 22 and i was brought up on hondas never once did i even look at the Ip untill i heard cleakson ( the guy from top gear) complain about stuf like that then everyone took off with what he said. the main concern with a car is how it Drives!!! second is ta kick ass sound system so when i get in traffic i can LISTEN to something there is no reason to be looking at you dash and saying man i have a great looking interior !!! Honstley the way people think the cts should be the best seller of ALL time....BUT its not its perception even if it had a better interior how many sales would that be.

[DkknightX]

Is this still going??????????

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

Honestly, Scott, in a way I feel bad for you, and all of the engineers and decision-makers behind the new Camaro. You've got some very rabid and tough-to-please fans, and that's not always a bad thing. But it is when they expect perfection at a fraction of the price.

I think it's a good thing actually. I believe in tough love and to be honest, I've been doing that with Scott for years. But I do it because I believe the more you challenge someone or a group, the better the result and in the end, GM wins because they've created a competitive product in challenging market. Go rent the movie Miracle and you'll understand.

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

I think some might tend to think of certain people behind the Camaro (particularly the "bean-counters") as these inhuman characters who couldn't care less about the car itself, and only about what it costs and what kind of profit it can generate. I could be wrong, but tend to doubt that as being true.

Oh but that's exactly how the bean counters are! Not one person on the Camaro team is that way however. They'd all give us the moon if they got the green light. Does anyone really think that it's John Fitzpatrick or Cheryl Pilcher who decided not to build the Z/28?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by fastball

I understand what you are saying, and belive me, I will be buying one so I'm not being hypocritical.....

What I am saying is that EVERY car GM builds should not have a single compromise. And if costs can't be kept down, perhaps it's a good thing for GM to go ch. 11 to get their costs in line with competitors which would otherwise be impossible with union contracts and such.

If costs were in line with competitors, I firmly believe you could have developed the Camaro at the same or LESS R&D funding than you did, and at the same time have the superior chasis it has, the syling, everything the car has already, but with greater attention to detail (better visors with lights, softer IP plastic, easy entry configurations for both seats, tucked away the wire loom for the trunk lid, and other small details) and still kept the sticker price where it is..... and the company make money..... all at the same time.

It is very apparent GM's cost structure is still far out of line with competitors.

If only your comments were true. Yes the cost structure has an impact on what the car will cost. And yes it would be nice if every care we built had "no compromises” Unfortunately; to BE General Motors you have legacy costs from your history, a history that brought a LONNNNGGGGGGG list of wonderful cars including now 5 Generations of Camaros. Innovations, inventions and creations that most of you are unaware of. GM was god in the crashworthiness world when I took a break and worked for another OEM, because we did so much incredible work over many years on saving lives in car crashes.

So BEING GM has legacy costs that the Japanese and German OEMs don't have. You act like it is GM's own fault in your posts. But you don't seem to be bothered that the reason the Japanese and German OEMs don't have these costs is because the government funds the health care completely. They have no costs. Did you know that the Japanese OEMs benefit $1,000 to $2,000 dollars on every car because of manipulation of the YEN. Yep free money.

So don't bash GM for this. Our government has let it happen, and the American people don't give a darn. Any lack of competitiveness isn't in our ability to design, engineer and build great products, it is in the very social issues that we as Americans ignore.

As far as no compromises? Well try to imagine every engineer getting their way. Only a very few cars on the road use THE best leathers, woods and metals without cost in mind. For all of you posting that “this little change would have only added a little cost or a little mass so GM is a FAIL for not doing it” you need to understand what it’s like to keep a car under mass and cost targets. Mass means fuel economy and performance. If 20 engineers just asked for a little bit more, virtually no more, the car would have been heavier and cost more.

So please quit making statements like that. This is an incredible car by any stretch. I've shown it to my friends at that Japanese OEM where I used to work and watched them pour over it with keen interest and enthusiasm.

Sorry to rant. It’s just so hard reading these comments about how easy it is and that GM is a FAIL because they don’t get it. That is the problem we have in the eyes of many people at the government level right now. They have no policies like they do in Germany or Japan that help their own industries and for some reason many of you seem to be ok with that. Why can’t the Big 3 compete? Why can’t Michael Phelps win a gold medal with hand cuffs on.

Again, sorry for the rant, but it had to be said IMO.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If only your comments were true. Yes the cost structure has an impact on what the car will cost. And yes it would be nice if every care we built had "no compromises” Unfortunately; to BE General Motors you have legacy costs from your history, a history that brought a LONNNNGGGGGGG list of wonderful cars including now 5 Generations of Camaros. Innovations, inventions and creations that most of you are unaware of. GM was god in the crashworthiness world when I took a break and worked for another OEM, because we did so much incredible work over many years on saving lives in car crashes.

So BEING GM has legacy costs that the Japanese and German OEMs don't have. You act like it is GM's own fault in your posts. But you don't seem to be bothered that the reason the Japanese and German OEMs don't have these costs is because the government funds the health care completely. They have no costs. Did you know that the Japanese OEMs benefit $1,000 to $2,000 dollars on every car because of manipulation of the YEN. Yep free money.

So don't bash GM for this. Our government has let it happen, and the American people don't give a darn. Any lack of competitiveness isn't in our ability to design, engineer and build great products, it is in the very social issues that we as Americans ignore.

As far as no compromises? Well try to imagine every engineer getting their way. Only a very few cars on the road use THE best leathers, woods and metals without cost in mind. For all of you posting that “this little change would have only added a little cost or a little mass so GM is a FAIL for not doing it” you need to understand what it’s like to keep a car under mass and cost targets. Mass means fuel economy and performance. If 20 engineers just asked for a little bit more, virtually no more, the car would have been heavier and cost more.

So please quit making statements like that. This is an incredible car by any stretch. I've shown it to my friends at that Japanese OEM where I used to work and watched them pour over it with keen interest and enthusiasm.
Sorry to rant. It’s just so hard reading these comments about how easy it is and that GM is a FAIL because they don’t get it. That is the problem we have in the eyes of many people at the government level right now. They have no policies like they do in Germany or Japan that help their own industries and for some reason many of you seem to be ok with that. Why can’t the Big 3 compete? Why can’t Michael Phelps win a gold medal with hand cuffs on.

Again, sorry for the rant, but it had to be said IMO.

Man do you ever sound like Scott!

[Silver Streak]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If only your comments were true. Yes the cost structure has an impact on what the car will cost. And yes it would be nice if every care we built had "no compromises” Unfortunately; to BE General Motors you have legacy costs from your history, a history that brought a LONNNNGGGGGGG list of wonderful cars including now 5 Generations of Camaros. Innovations, inventions and creations that most of you are unaware of. GM was god in the crashworthiness world when I took a break and worked for another OEM, because we did so much incredible work over many years on saving lives in car crashes.

So BEING GM has legacy costs that the Japanese and German OEMs don't have. You act like it is GM's own fault in your posts. But you don't seem to be bothered that the reason the Japanese and German OEMs don't have these costs is because the government funds the health care completely. They have no costs. Did you know that the Japanese OEMs benefit $1,000 to $2,000 dollars on every car because of manipulation of the YEN. Yep free money.

So don't bash GM for this. Our government has let it happen, and the American people don't give a darn. Any lack of competitiveness isn't in our ability to design, engineer and build great products, it is in the very social issues that we as Americans ignore.

As far as no compromises? Well try to imagine every engineer getting their way. Only a very few cars on the road use THE best leathers, woods and metals without cost in mind. For all of you posting that “this little change would have only added a little cost or a little mass so GM is a FAIL for not doing it” you need to understand what it’s like to keep a car under mass and cost targets. Mass means fuel economy and performance. If 20 engineers just asked for a little bit more, virtually no more, the car would have been heavier and cost more.

So please quit making statements like that. This is an incredible car by any stretch. I've shown it to my friends at that Japanese OEM where I used to work and watched them pour over it with keen interest and enthusiasm.

Sorry to rant. It’s just so hard reading these comments about how easy it is and that GM is a FAIL because they don’t get it. That is the problem we have in the eyes of many people at the government level right now. They have no policies like they do in Germany or Japan that help their own industries and for some reason many of you seem to be ok with that. Why can’t the Big 3 compete? Why can’t Michael Phelps win a gold medal with hand cuffs on.

Again, sorry for the rant, but it had to be said IMO.

:flag2:

[fbodfather]

Number 3 --

I vote your quote:


".....Why can’t the Big 3 compete? Why can’t Michael Phelps win a gold medal with hand cuffs on....."

as quote of the Year!!!!

PERFECT!!!