Pedders Xa Coil Over for the Camaro

[Croathlete]

Originally Posted by dms

So what does a Z06 Vette do in your area?

My theory, NYC and Long Island have some sort of deal with area body shops to put potholes and "speed bumps" on the road on purpose.

For anyone familiar with the LIE exit 42 going east on the ramp going to the Northern State. There's a "speed bump" that unless you're going 5 mph (35mph speed limit) or in a truck, sounds extremely painful.

I have no idea what the Corvette's do. Suspension work every couple of years?

[jeffny09]

i go the coil overs on order

[PoleCat2SSRS2010]

Do you sell scales for balancing weight distribution too? Seems like an important tool given the total adjustibility between height and spring pressure combinations that are possible. How will we know whne everything is installed correctly (either by ourselves or second party service provider).

(yeah me I reached number 100! yeah!)

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by PoleCat2SSRS2010

Do you sell scales for balancing weight distribution too? Seems like an important tool given the total adjustibility between height and spring pressure combinations that are possible. How will we know whne everything is installed correctly (either by ourselves or second party service provider).

(yeah me I reached number 100! yeah!)

There are tons of people that will corner balance cars. But unless you are road racing or serious autocross, you do not need to corner balance.

Pete's G8 was abut 10mm low in the back end to get to his desired levels. Bu also he probably has about and extra 100lbs up front due to his ProCharger. What is required on a Camaro, is not certain at this point.

The Camaro will have a shorter wheel base than the G8, and this changes things as well.

The important thing to do is to talk to us about your goals for handling. After Pete does the Camaro Xa beta test, we will know a lot more.
Since the Camaro is only at the .90gs range for a SS, we know we can get you over 1.0 with our complete system and some tires. Also what is right for you may not be right for others. Car car teams spend months on suspension setups. So we are prepared for all levels of drivers.

mike
dms

mike
dms

[Camaro_Corvette]

Nevermind

[speedster]

Mike -
I am interested.
Have two questions.

1. Assume that height/spring rate can be changed or ordered that compensate for added front end weight? (Maybe as much as 150 lbs)

2. Can your systems be adjusted (relatively easily) for front/rear bias for maximum weight transfer for 1/4 mile? And then back to drive home.

I know no suspension can do it all, but the with technology the systems seem to be able to make the switch pretty well between street/track/drag.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mike.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by camaro_corvette

I got a question. Unless GM has given them a camaro to test those with, how do they know that they will improve handling

It is true that we have not done any of the testing on a Camaro yet. However, we have a massiive amount of hours on a G8. The Camaro does not have a unique suspension, even though there are several parts that are different with the Zeta II, it is still a Zeta platform.

mike
dms

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by speedster

Mike -
I am interested.
Have two questions.

1. Assume that height/spring rate can be changed or ordered that compensate for added front end weight? (Maybe as much as 150 lbs)

2. Can your systems be adjusted (relatively easily) for front/rear bias for maximum weight transfer for 1/4 mile? And then back to drive home.

I know no suspension can do it all, but the with technology the systems seem to be able to make the switch pretty well between street/track/drag.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mike.

You will need corner weighing to be able to shift bias. Once you know what levels you want, record them, then you can always return. Plus with respect to damping levels, the extremes in adjustment capabilities are significant.

the G8 coil rates will be changed and will be at 8kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear. For drags, you will probably want to go down to 6kg/mm fronts.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by speedster

Mike -
I am interested.
Have two questions.

1. Assume that height/spring rate can be changed or ordered that compensate for added front end weight? (Maybe as much as 150 lbs)

2. Can your systems be adjusted (relatively easily) for front/rear bias for maximum weight transfer for 1/4 mile? And then back to drive home.

I know no suspension can do it all, but the with technology the systems seem to be able to make the switch pretty well between street/track/drag.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mike.

You will need corner weighing to be able to shift bias. Once you know what levels you want, record them, then you can always return. Plus with respect to damping levels, the extremes in adjustment capabilities are significant.

the G8 coil rates will be changed and will be at 8kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear. For drags, you will probably want to go down to 6kg/mm fronts.

So I think there will be available up to 10kg/mm coil rates.

Adjusting right heights are not hard to do, but will require you putting the vehicle in the air. The rears are easier to get to and can be done without removing the wheels. But the front is a lot easier with the front wheels off.

Now depending on the biases you want, will depend on if the Xas will work for you. If you are looking to do a 90/10 front and a 25/75 rear, this will not work. Our Xas are monotubes and when you adjust the dampers, there is an equal % change thru jounce and rebound, and thru all speeds. Now for drag racing, you may want to set up the fronts at really low numbers, like 5 or so, and the rears at 10-15. Then drive home at 15 front an 12 rear.

mike
dms

[speedster]

Thanks Mike.

I will contact you directly because we have way more to go over than what I can type without passing out at the keyboard. That way I won't hog the thread with my very specific requests.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by speedster

Thanks Mike.

I will contact you directly because we have way more to go over than what I can type without passing out at the keyboard. That way I won't hog the thread with my very specific requests.

I would be glad to assist you when you are ready.


Have you seen pete's review of our Pedders testing in NJ?
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13979

Some highlights:
86 Infiniti G37
.87 Ford Shelby GT500
.88 Dodge Charger SRT 8
.88 Pontiac G8 GT
.93 Ford GT500 Super Snake
.94 Audi RS 4
.95 BMW M3
.98 Audi RS R8
.99 Corvette Z06
.99 Porsche 911 Turbo
.99 Porsche Carrera GT
1.00 Porsche 911S
1.0006 Pedders USA, LLC Composite Pontiac G8
1.01 Ferrari Enzo
1.01 Dodge Viper SRT 10
1.02 Pedders USA, LLC Pontiac G8
1.03 Porsche 911 GTZ
1.04 Porsche GT3 RS

Let’s talk about setup on the Pontiac G8 ZETA Chassis which will apply to the soon to be delivered Chevrolet Camaro. The limitations of the OE ZETA chassis are directly related to production limitations and determination to reach a market price point. At Pedders USA, LLC we believe that the billion dollars of chassis development for the GM Global Rear Wheel Drive ZETA chassis has been well spent. The monocoque is solid, very solid. The IRS is among the best in the automotive industry as any price point. The evolution of the McPherson strut front suspension delivers remarkable results. The G8 in OR configuration is a very very good automobile with the potential to be a GREAT Automobile. We took our G8s to NJMP to prove our point.

Eric and Rich Johnson were generous with their time on the Friday before the 30th. They shut down Backstreet Performance to prep the Pedders USA, LLC G8. Eric and their Lead tech Matt worked until the wee hours of the morning to finish the job. Every nut and bolt was checked to make certain the car was track ready. That was the easy part. The more complex part of the equation was corner weighting and alignment.

Finished Ride Heights:
FR 610mm
FL 610mm
RR 595
LR 593

This was an interesting result. We drove in at:

FR 615mm
FL 615mm
RR 585
LR 585

We actually raised the rear and lowered the front to get to the best possible balance.

Corner Values
RF 1,111
LF 1,177
RR 925
LR 1050

Cross Weight
2161 50.7%

Drivers Weight 184
Fuel ¾ of a tank

Most of the magazines publish the front to rear weight ratio for the G8 GT at 51 / 49% Our numbers were different.

Front 53.1% / Rear 46.9%

The Pedders USA, LLC G8 has a ProCharger and coolers for Oil, Tranny and PS all mounted in front of the wheels. We believe this 100 pounds of additional weight created the difference between published numbers and our results. Our vehicle weight with the driver in place was just under 4,300 pounds. We were able to reduce weight in the wheels, tires and suspension while making significant upgrades. The 19x9.5 Forgeline wheels with 275/35/19/XL Pole Position Bridgestone tires reduced weight by just over 9 pounds per wheel over the OE 19x8 245/40 Bridgstone tires. This reduction in mass is HUGE at speed and dramatically improves braking, acceleration and car control. Pedders Xa coilovers reduced the weight at the corners as well. An OE G8 strut assembly weighs in at roughly 20 pounds. We saved another 8 pounds here. While 70 pounds doesn’t sound like a lot in a two ton vehicle, 70 pounds at the corners is significant.

A limiting factor in the corner weighting process are fixed length endlinks. Adjustable endlinks would have improved the results by about 35 pounds per corner making an already well balanced vehicle almost perfect. The typical adjustable endlink uses spherical bearings and looks a lot like a screen door adjuster. They work very well, but at a great expense in NVH. The G8 is a LUXURY performance sedan. We did not want to convert it to a race car with the typical harsh ride and increase in cabin noise. We wanted to make this LUXURY sedan perform like a race car, but ride like a LUXURY car so we passed on the adjustable endlinks – until Pedders can deliver a set of double ball joint adjustable length endlinks that are as quiet as OE endlinks and we don’t expect that to be a long wait.

Production vehicles with limited option lists are very consistent in weight distribution. Using the locking collar measurements as presets for your Xa coilover installation will get you close to a corner weighted vehicle. While the car would not be coner weighted, you starting point for corner weighting will be pretty darn close.

RF 33mm / FR 610mm
LF 29.7mm / FL 610mm
RR 30.5mm / RR 595
LR 38mm / LR 593

These are the numbers from my personal G8. They will not be the exact numbers your vehicle would need on the scales, but they will be close to what you need. The variations in collar distances do not directly translate to ride height. The ride heights are so close you cannot see a difference and the measured variation is only 2mm. The collar distance measurements have an 8mm difference in the rear. This is due to the weight distribution of the vehicle and the load being placed on the vehicle by the sway bar.

With the corner weighting complete, it was on to the alignment. There is minimal data available for road course alignment setup on the G8. There are countless opinions and we relied on a series of experts in the field. Some are on the Pedders payroll, some are Pedders Dealers and some are veteran road course racers. We decided to use these specifications.

Front
Castor 7.75 No Bias
Camber -2.2
Toe -3.0

Rear
Camber -1.4
Toe +.03

With the G8 so low, reducing camber was a challenge. We were able to increase the range of adjustment using custom alignment bolts. We plan to provide more details on the forum about this, but for the present you should know that the OE toe and camber bolt / washers provide about .75 degrees of adjustment. Our custom made setup has an adjustment range of 1.5 degrees. Once we have completed our evaluation of the modification we will provide more details.

The sway bars were adjusted to full hard in the rear and one off full hard in the front. We ran with the Xa coilovers set to 30 all around. Running the dampers this hard is fine for short periods of time on the road course, but would cause excessive wear on street tires if used for long track sessions. The combination of coil rate and damper rate would be too much increasing heat in the tire which would lead to the tire becoming greasy with rapid wear. An R compound tire would be very happy with this setup and we would probably back the front bar off a notch or maybe not after testing.


mike
dms

[speedster]

Have you seen pete's review of our Pedders testing in NJ?

Nope, but I just bookmarked it to go over tomorrow.
Thanks Mike.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Now I know this is a G8 and slightly different. But the before/after shots will be fairly comparatve to the Camaro

I just finished a Xa Street System on a G8 at Abel Chevrolet Pontiac Buick in Suisun, Ca. Its a new G8, the same color as Petes, with 19s. The owner wanted a slight old school rake and the fronts to have the fenders nearly equal to the tires. This is exactly what we did.

Originally the heights were at 652-655 front, and 650-653 rears. After installing the Xas, we set the fronts to 600mm and the rears to 610mm. The front dampers at 16clicks and the rears at 12 clicks. This is a moderately aggressive setup.

Here are the before and after pictures:

BEFORE AT 652-655 FRONT AND 650-653 REAR

After WITH XA'S AT 600 FRONT AND 610 REAR

Now we have done a very serious amount of testing, and corner balancing of Pete's G8



Now Pete's G8 s corner balanced. Production vehicles with limited option lists are very consistent in weight distribution. Using the locking collar measurements as presets for your Xa coilover installation will get you close to a corner weighted vehicle. While the car would not be coner weighted, you starting point for corner weighting will be pretty darn close.

RF 33mm / FR 610mm
LF 29.7mm / FL 610mm
RR 30.5mm / RR 595
LR 38mm / LR 593

Now Pete and have have different goals in mind. Pete;s G8 is all about performance and it does exactly what what he wants. Me personally I do no like the back end look. but to get the G8 balanced correctly, it needs to be 15mm lower in the rear. ( GTOs and LXs are the same). But as long as the customer is not racing, I like the old school slight rake, and the stance of the G8 at 600 front and 610 rear.

Your thoughts.

mike
dms

[JusticePete]

Camaro Xa Kit #1 is in the building!!!