How much truth in this advice against engine mods?

[90503]

Glad to see this topic. I have found one of the hardest things to "resist" is doing expensive/"risky" mods...hopefully those who express restraint can save the inexperienced and not so deep-pocketed camaro owners a lot of headache...
My biggest thanks goes to those who have done mods and have bad luck with them and are willing to share their lessons learned...I feel bad for those who find out what they just had done on their cars didn't work out...
I hope that those who are anxious to "improve" their cars with mods will learn from the others and not rush into something just to "keep up with the Jones's"...
In defense of the installer's and supplier's...its not their job to completely educate you about all the risks...they will sell you whatever you insist on...its your car and your money...
What I would do (one of these days)...is build a second motor that is modded up to the hilt and swap them out....(I think I'm dreaming)...but for me, I'm not ready to risk the stock motor.. 426 hp is just fine..

[JusticePete]

There are a number of shops that provide warranty when they mod an engine. LPE and ARD come to mind. I have worked with ProCharger as a marketing partner for years now. The first LS1 ProCharged GTO was mine. The first ProCharged G8 was mine. I think I was the second ProCharged Camaro. There are several others, but you get the idea. My cars were guinea pig prototype cars. The installations were done at ProCharger. The tunes revised when we added headers, changed intercoolers,... The cars covered a good number of miles with many of them highly abusive on road courses. Here is my list of problems.

One tensioner distorted and required replacement
A bolt came loose

No engine issues. No nightmares. Many of our clients have highly modified vehicles. Those built by quality shops are very satisfied. Some that followed a budget approach are not so satisfied. Some things never change. Quality service isn't expensive. Quality service is priceless. Do your research here on C5. Talk to the various shops. Pick the shop that will stand behind their work with a warranty and has the financial strength to back it up.

PS: When Paul Tracy missed a downshift and pegged the tach on my Camaro at the OPTIMA Challenge guess what happened? Nothing. The LS3 is one tough motor. Don't go crazy and you'll feel the same way.

[wayner]

My question is , "how do you know if you have a bad tune"

[tjudah87]

Alot of truth to that. Reason why I'm looking at getting rid of my car for a clean low mileage 06-08' vette. Less weight+more power. I think I will be satisfied enough to leave it pretty much stock.

[Blueclyde]

Do your homework and set some realistic goals. Learn what you want, not what others have done. Pick a good shop. Plenty of sponsors here on C5. If you are considering Livernois, I speak from direct experience, they are very qualified. Last but not least... Don't beat the crap out of your car. Most guys hurting LS engines are pushing the hp limit and the accelerator too hard too many times.

[JamesNoBrakes]

2nd "do your own research".

Know your limits.

Know that the LS3 is a relatively low-compression V8. That opens up the possibility for some boost. That also opens up the possiblitiy for heat soak, then there's lean mixture if you run too much boost, then there's moving all of the exhaust, and under "pressure" (boost) everything is going to have a harder time, so the proper exhaust components will be necessary. You'll have to upgrade fuel injectors, plugs and other hardware eventually depending on how far you want to go.


From modding turbocharged cars, the number one rule I would have to stress is do ALL THE SUPPORTING MODS whenever you upgrade something. Do not buy/install something until you can do the entire deal. Find out all that is required to make it safe and give you the proper support. Example: I live in a very hot climate, in addition to all the other "stage 2" mods and tune for my previous car, I put a bigger intercooler in there to help with the heat. Many don't even go that far, but I also re-worked my air-scoop and splitter to route maximum air over the intercooler, while still providing the turbo with it's cooling air-flow. Given that I live at high altitude, it probably also helped that I wasn't boosting as high as is possible at lower altitude, further reducing the stress on my engine, but: If I went further with engine mods, I'd have to do a lot. It would seem easy to slap on a VF39/43/TD05 or a number of other turbos, because they fit right up and take all the oil/coolant lines, but they require bigger injectors, a better fuel pump, revised up-pipe to utilize them, an even larger intercooler would be a good choice at that point, and then you have to think about the fact that you are running the stock engine block and internals. A forged block. pistons and internals (pistons were forged OEM though) would be advisable at that point. Stage 3 is usually no joke for these cars and makes some serious power and provides serious fun, but you do it wrong and your engine won't last very long, or at the least it's got a limited lifespan.

I see you said "springs" in your post, that's a great example. I don't want to sound duragatory, but springs aren't a great mod, they make the car look better, and having a lower CG does help with handling, but you've reduced the suspension's ability to suck up road imperfections, bumps and other stuff. That will reduce grip in some situations. Despite what anyone says, chopped springs will be stiffer, and they will not match the OEM damper-rates. If you are going to push your car, it's going to be far from optimal. That $500 or whatever (plus install) is much better spent saving up for coil-overs. I got the swaybars, I would do some of the bushings next, but "springs" isn't in my plan, it would be coil-overs and then I can adjust the settings to match the spring rate.

The chevy dealer here is an idiot, telling me about the "superchargers" and everything. Yes, I might consider a supercharger for my camaro, but this guy has a hard-on for them and can't think about anything else, doesn't believe they are parasitic when making power and putting more stress on the crankshaft, doesn't realize their K&N filter is virtually worthless, and so on. I do trust these guys to install certain parts given my directions or to follow some canned-procedures as far as supercharger installation, but I don't trust their knowledge or expertise. There are just too many holes in what they say.

Do the research. Spend a long time before you make any decisions. There are a LOT of people who just want their car to look cool and have "cool mods" for comparission's sake or something. Make sure what you get/mod makes sense.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by wayner

My question is , "how do you know if you have a bad tune"

How the car drives is a key indicator, but that is not as clear as it sounds. The professional drivers we hire can't always tell how the car is performing. I have had drivers tell me the car doesn't feel right. We pull up the data, look at the splits and laps only to find the last laps he ran were his fastest in the car. 'OK the car is great.'

Rich Johnson from Back Street Performance has a mobile dyno they use primarily at SCCA events. It has to be accurate for these events. Rich also does special events. I remember being at a LX event. Car after car on the dyno fell 100 HP or more short of what they expected based on dyno sheets from their shop or tuner.

With forced induction, the tuners that claim to deliver the last available pony are pushing the cal parameters and fuel system to the limit. We don't want every single pony. We want about 90% of maximum and an engine that lives.

[mulletman]

Avoid car movies like the plague? Vin Diesel showed me the advantages of NOSS!

[So Cal Camaro]

My past experience is that the more you mod an engine/trans, whether car or motorcycle, you end up creating more potential for issues with each added mod. I've rarely ever had a problem with a stock vehicle, but have been stuck on the side of the road with a vehicle full of mods and bigger problem is not everyone can easily diagnose your vehicle...main reason I have not done much to this Camaro, I like to go on long road trips and don't want issues on the Power Tour.

[14pilot]

Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro

My past experience is that the more you mod an engine/trans, whether car or motorcycle, you end up creating more potential for issues with each added mod. I've rarely ever had a problem with a stock vehicle, but have been stuck on the side of the road with a vehicle full of mods and bigger problem is not everyone can easily diagnose your vehicle...main reason I have not done much to this Camaro, I like to go on long road trips and don't want issues on the Power Tour.

+1. I've been modding vehicles for almost 40 years and this is absolutely the truth. Still fun to do, but its good if you own all the right tools and have the knowledge to fix your creations. Otherwise, as So Cal Camaro says, your going to have bigger problems that only a limited number of shops with limited shop hours, are going to be of help when you are on the roadside.

[camslambam]

Summarizing so you don't have to read a wall of text:


If he has blown 3 engines, he most likely has -no- idea what he is doing.

It's extremely simple to bump horsepower on an engine. Whoever is emailing you sounds like one of those guys that get stock engines and throw a 200 shot without even tuning it. Or mix s/c with nitrous.


Don't listen to all these people who claim mods just give you problems. Read up some, learn about your engine, and have someone who KNOWS what they are doing work on it. Engines are extremely sturdy if done right. Treat them with respect and love and they'll love you back.

[90503]

Figures this thread gets sent to the boneyard...Heaven forbid some new camaro owners might think twice about immediately "modding" their brand new cars...I suppose thats what you can expect from a sponsor driven/peer pressure driven "forum-discussion" web-site...I guess the experience of long time car owners and modifiers who advise common sense (see above) just doesn't fit the mold...

Congratulations to all who have successfully modified their cars as they have chosen,
and to performance shops who know what they are doing...and thanks to those who have experience to advise others..."maybe you should hold off a while.."

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by camslambam

Summarizing so you don't have to read a wall of text:


If he has blown 3 engines, he most likely has -no- idea what he is doing.

It's extremely simple to bump horsepower on an engine. Whoever is emailing you sounds like one of those guys that get stock engines and throw a 200 shot without even tuning it. Or mix s/c with nitrous.


Don't listen to all these people who claim mods just give you problems. Read up some, learn about your engine, and have someone who KNOWS what they are doing work on it. Engines are extremely sturdy if done right. Treat them with respect and love and they'll love you back.

Not everyone can respect or love a piece of in-organic materials. Just kidding I know what your saying.

Regardless, every mod that's made in one area has an impact somplace else. There areen't any one stop shops that will have all the answers either. That's why any "good" shop will have relationships with other SME's in the industry.

Adding TQ / HP has an affect on all the rest of the drivetrain components, suspension, frame, body, et al. An engine may be fine if you mod it right to support 1000rwhp. but your clutch, converter, tranny, DS, differential or axles may not be rated for that amount of power. So, part of educating ones self is not to be stuck in a bubble simply listening to one perspective focusing on the engine components, supercharger, or tune.

From someone who has learned an amazing amount from the C5 community, other forums, friends I've met along the way and the shop that works on my vehicle, and further I"m not too proud to admit I've made some mistakes along the way in my desire to have power over addressing the bigger risks (even though I was told a boosted un-forged high power engine is risky business), rather than advise someone not to listen to others who have un-limited experiences to share, I would recommend one to always get responses from a consumer as well as vendors and once they decide which shop will work on their vehicle, confirm what you've learned and ask as many questions as possible to know the pros / cons / risks.

There is an obvious difference between consumer and vendor feedback as consumers have nothing to gain / lose by providing "honest" feedback. I would say just about all consumers have valuable information to offer about their experiences whether it's good or bad that would benefit anyone who is interested in "learning" about this particular hobby. It's as much a responsibility of the consumers to learn the "pros / cons / risks" of the aftermarket industry as it is the vendors to be tranparent and provide "all" the facts.

Vendors are in the business to make a living mod'ing your ride and limiting their financial risk and responsiblity (that's just business), so if you "ignorantly" walk in with $15k, demanding a Stage"N" SC package and 600rwhp. and a bare bones budget, they'll slap it in and send you one your way, you may get what you paid for, something more or less, good or bad, more expensive or not, warrantied or on your own. Just like buying anything else, in a capitalistic democracy it's ultimately up to the consumer to know what they're getting into. Research is key, and considering different points of view won't guarantee anything, however it's much better to reduce your risks having all the fact than just getting a one sided opinion from someone who is in the industry to make a living off your avails of their service.

Originally Posted by 90503

Figures this thread gets sent to the boneyard...Heaven forbid some new camaro owners might think twice about immediately "modding" their brand new cars...I suppose thats what you can expect from a sponsor driven/peer pressure driven "forum-discussion" web-site...I guess the experience of long time car owners and modifiers who advise common sense (see above) just doesn't fit the mold...

Congratulations to all who have successfully modified their cars as they have chosen,
and to performance shops who know what they are doing...and thanks to those who have experience to advise others..."maybe you should hold off a while.."

Ummm.... no freedom of speech or freedom of expression here man, expect to get one of those moderator emails.

[caverman]

I agree that the more you mod the more potential you have for issues to come up.

Like people have said before, you have to pay to play. If you're not willing to take a chance on the engine blowing and paying out of your pocket if it does then you should probably think twice about your mods.

I would love the sound of a nice cam but don't want to give up driveability and/or the chance of engine failure. For me, I stuck to just headers/tune/exhaust which really wakes up these cars. Even with just the tune I'm still taking a chance of an issue that won't get covered under warranty but it's much lower than doing a cam or SC if you get it tuned by someone that knows what they are doing.

I would suggest taking it one small step at a time. If you want to mod then get the headers/tune. Then work on suspension stuff that will help get the power to the ground. You may be plenty satisfied with that....at least for a little while. Then if/when you decide you want more you can weigh the options of going to a cam vs potiential drive train issues.

Just my take.....