Constructive criticism, not HATE

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

the slit at the top of the grill should be optional... if it doesn't function, why not make it an option? yes, I know that would mean making another, THIRD front end assembly, but the look of the RS equipped car without the slit is just sexy, IMO, and it harkens back to the original 1st gens... the car would have sold without it... other than that, I like the SS front end and would choose its shape over the regular front end... my perfect combination would definitely be the SS bottom and V6 top.

I liked all of your points but this one hits a big nerve for me!

[jmliptak]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

the weight of the 5th gen Camaro:
never in the history of the name Camaro has a car had to meet, and exceed, so many safety standards... front, side, side curtain and knee airbags are all things that are new to the engineering department... crash safety standards that will have to be met on mulitiple continents... all of this adds up... and as it adds up, the heft of the car goes up and up... and, unfortunately, that's just how it is... there is no other choice.

the engine/powertrain of the 5th gen Camaro:
when was the last time GM told the truth about one of their engines? especially in an f-body... the last 5.7L LS1 was rated at 310bhp in the Z28... my 2002 six speed Z28 dynoed 302.2RWHP... do the math: 302.2 + 15% drivetrain loss = 347.2bhp... now the 422hp rating isn't even FINAL yet... with the new SAE standards, its a little harder to hide horsepower, but when you see numbers like this, DO NOT FREAK OUT... this is all still speculation and the hard numbers aren't in yet... I encourage each and every one of you, even the V6 guys, to get on a dyno once you get a car in your hands... I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Weight:

The Camaro is designed I believe to meet not only 2009 impact standards but those through 2012. The standards begin with required side for the head in 2009 and GO UP from there through 2012. The Mustang is on an older platform and can just make the airbags standard for 2009. I seem to remember something about a new Mustang in 2010, I think I know ONE of the reason why there will be a change.

I am not saying that will mean the weight will be the same as the Camaro for other reasons like the solid axle, but I think you get the idea.

Engine/Powertrain:

The way you did your HP calculation understates it. I only know this one because I made the same mistake myself before. You divide by .85, not add 15 percent. My 98 SS dynoed at a corrected 306 at the rear wheels (actual was 312, but affected my temp, etc). So 306/.85 = 360.

Your 302 is actually 355.

To be mathematical about it:

.85HP = 302
HP = 302/.85
HP = 355.29

I only mention it because it is even better than stated. It almost like they understated the LS1 even on the Vette by about 5hp. I think I have heard rumors to the affect that that practice continues to this day....

[Punk_rider]

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

Not enough HP, this one I have no clue...422HP not enough? 300HP V6 not enough?

Well ... true .. but if you were waiting for 550hp supercharged, then 420 IS disappointing

[radz28]

All this math is giving me a brain aneurism.

Although I agree with Punk' in that I'm waiting, I feel 422 and 305 is a lot and good. Many will be happy with those, but some just want more, and why not, and why shouldn't they have it?

[Cubanaso]

this car is the new halo car, GM... the Corvette is going upmarket and out of the common man's price range... time to make good with a car that the common man can afford... FWD SS cars aren't cutting it anymore... the CAMARO is your new breadwinner, and its what is going to draw people into the dealerships and sells Malibus, Cobalts, HHRs and Impalas to those guys that can't justify the Camaro to their wives/girlfriends... the Challenger 'vert is already slated for 2010 release... lets get the Camaro 'vert and Z28 models on the market and not be late to the ballgame for once, shall we?

I hear you, but on this I strongly disagree. What happened to the Vette last time it started claiming in price? What was the original Camaro's sole purpose?

Again, no disrespect of course, but I hope that GM does not forget that the soul of the Camaro is an affordable sports car for the common Joe.

So I hear you, I love it but I'll still call her fat...while again she is sure pretty!

[Cubanaso]

Well ... true .. but if you were waiting for 550hp supercharged, then 420 IS disappointing

Yeah I understand, but I thought 400's not 500's...did GM say 500's?

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

Hi, I'm Turtle Young and I'm a locomotive engineer by trade, but a Mechanical Engineer by education... I have BS in Mechanical Engineering from Rice University in Houston, TX... my comments on Camaro5 are frequently taken as "well, he's just a fan boy" but in the real world, I have a much deeper understanding of what goes on with the design and development of a car than probably 80% of the population... I have several contacts inside GM and Chrysler and I choose to keep those contacts anonymous to preserve my right to talk to them... I am saying this so that most people on here will know that I'm not just some wack job, I'm generally well informed and my words are chosen for a reason.


the weight of the 5th gen Camaro:
never in the history of the name Camaro has a car had to meet, and exceed, so many safety standards... front, side, side curtain and knee airbags are all things that are new to the engineering department... crash safety standards that will have to be met on mulitiple continents... all of this adds up... and as it adds up, the heft of the car goes up and up... and, unfortunately, that's just how it is... there is no other choice.

the engine/powertrain of the 5th gen Camaro:
when was the last time GM told the truth about one of their engines? especially in an f-body... the last 5.7L LS1 was rated at 310bhp in the Z28... my 2002 six speed Z28 dynoed 302.2RWHP... do the math: 302.2 + 15% drivetrain loss = 347.2bhp... now the 422hp rating isn't even FINAL yet... with the new SAE standards, its a little harder to hide horsepower, but when you see numbers like this, DO NOT FREAK OUT... this is all still speculation and the hard numbers aren't in yet... I encourage each and every one of you, even the V6 guys, to get on a dyno once you get a car in your hands... I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

the look of the 5th gen Camaro:
have you seen how similar this car is to the Concept? from interior to exterior, its almost identical... and, honestly, I think that the interior of the car looks even BETTER than the Concepts because I think the Concept's interior looked kinda over the top childlike... too much flash and not enough function... and the production interior doesn't do that... its functional, comfortable and very easy to use... all of the buttons that are supposed to be within reach of the driver are in ergonomically correct places... and I love it... but that's just me... before you hate on any single thing in there, go look at one yourself... they'll be at Indy... they'll probably be at the Woodward Dream Cruise... go out and find this car and look for yourself.
The exterior of the car is something between classy and sexy... its got alot of what you expect in a Camaro with a few surprises... you have to understand that some things had to be sacrificed in the name of safety and target market... the ability to make each car your own is what will make this car a success, just like the 4th gen has been a wild success... how many of us have cars that look 100% identical? probably not many anymore, almost 6 years after the last 2002 rolled off the assembly line... and by the time 2015 rolls around and we're six years into the availability of the 5th gen, I'm betting almost none of them will look identical, too... so, again, I encourage each and every one of y'all to go and look for yourself at this car... I promise, it will be worth the drive, plane ticket and/or time you spend getting there.


my gripes:
the HUD should have been available at launch... there's got to be a good reason for this, none of which I can seem to find, but the HUD is a HUGE selling point for a car in this market... giving the RS models a HUD standard would have been a huge advantage to the Camaro... ball dropped, nothing we can do about it now.

the slit at the top of the grill should be optional... if it doesn't function, why not make it an option? yes, I know that would mean making another, THIRD front end assembly, but the look of the RS equipped car without the slit is just sexy, IMO, and it harkens back to the original 1st gens... the car would have sold without it... other than that, I like the SS front end and would choose its shape over the regular front end... my perfect combination would definitely be the SS bottom and V6 top.

the Z28 shouldn't have been delayed... making the decision to delay a car like that, as well as delaying the 'vert, was a bad idea... I hope that GM was watching this week when their stock price rose 50% when the Camaro information hit the internet... this car is the new halo car, GM... the Corvette is going upmarket and out of the common man's price range... time to make good with a car that the common man can afford... FWD SS cars aren't cutting it anymore... the CAMARO is your new breadwinner, and its what is going to draw people into the dealerships and sells Malibus, Cobalts, HHRs and Impalas to those guys that can't justify the Camaro to their wives/girlfriends... the Challenger 'vert is already slated for 2010 release... lets get the Camaro 'vert and Z28 models on the market and not be late to the ballgame for once, shall we?

oh, and I'm fairly sure that this has already been addressed internally, but for the LOVE OF GOD, please dont offer a Z28 'vert... there will be aftermarket manufacturers that offer superchargers for the 'vert when its launched... its one less car to have to develope and if you really want to go that fast, the only thing topless should be your passenger.

Nice post. I for one don't like the V8 SS grill and do like the slit... Wish I could get a V8 SS/RS with the V6 front bumper and keep the slit.. As for the weight, I'm not upset about it as it is better to have the Camaro than not at all.. I hope GM listens to all of us and gets out a Z28 ASAP..

[rgrizzard]

Only here could we have a post speaking about others' posts...

[JaysonAych]

I've no problem with constructive criticism. A good discussion provides (and seems to have provided) some good insights and input to the car and any running changes that might take place down the line. And I've certainly pointed out that I would have preferred the car to include this or that, but I understand why choices were made to offer this and not offer that and recognize that those little things are quite insignificant to the much greater whole of the car. What I can't stand are people saying, "WHAT NO TOP MOUNTED GAS CAP????? What kind of idiots are they? They just lost me as a customer!" or "OMG GM won't bring out a highly-limited expensive Z28 for another year...this car is crap and will fail!" or "They won't offer the car in two-tone beige and blue? THIS CAR IS RUINED and NO ONE WILL BUY IT11!1!!" It's the overly dramatic response to minor details and the complete slamming of the company, the efforts of the Camaro team, and the large majority of the people who are satisfied with the car and willing to make a sacrifice in personal preferences here and there to get one. If it doesn't meet your standards, fine...present the arguments in a civilized way and offer suggestions and criticism. If enough people agree, we might see those things implemented down the line. However, the production car is ready and most things are set in stone and not going to change for some time. Bashing and ALL CAPS COMPLAINTSESES ZOMG aren't going solve anything at this stage.

[Hylton]

Don't sweat it bro! They're just kids anyways.

[Cubanaso]

Jayson....RIGHT ON, I agree with ya.

[TheCaptain]

Great post Jayson!

[DGthe3]

I have been going through the General Discussions forum for hours after missing out a lot of time this past week.

While the constant Z28 threads are annoying, and I forget how many complaints threads, and complaints about complaints threads, it was expected.

the little issues need to be discussed, absolutely. If nobody tells them, nothing can be done. But if it turns out that the majority feel that GM was right for doing what they are, that needs to be heard as well

Weight: GM couldn't do a whole lot about the weight. Plain and simple. There are a number of reasons -safety, platform, cost. But if it still gives best in class performance AND fuel economy, what does the weight matter?

Oh, and Turtle: great post. Its nice to know there are others around here who went for mechanical engineering.