Info and thoughts on LSA/Whipple Kits or others Thinking about FI.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

I see these kits listed on GPI, I am not 100 % sure the differences but they all appear to be around the same price.
What else would I need?
I have not wrote off a Procharger yet but at this point I am leaning towards these.


https://gwatneyperformance.com/whipp...harger-system/
https://gwatneyperformance.com/magnu...-26-62-370-bl/
https://gwatneyperformance.com/magnu...-26-62-158-bl/

I think our best bet would be to discuss directly and we can go over details for your particular combination. Shoot me an email at andrew@gwatneyperformance.com and we can talk through what would serve your needs best. I didn't look at what the deal was that was in the link shared for sale here, but that might be a great option as well.

[Joe.G]

I reached out to scott, Him and I are supposed to talk and well see what happens. Andrew I will reach out to you as well as you have always been helpful with my Purchases though GPI.

[Zl_garrett]

Originally Posted by acammer

Are you firmly locked in on a PD (positive displacement) supercharger, or are you open-minded to centrifugal supercharger options. PD blowers are fun, but I think people sleep on centrifugal superchargers, assuming they are somehow lesser performing. I would argue that a centrifugal supercharger is a BETTER option.

The instant power and torque of a PD blower is incredibly fun to cruise around with, and certainly gives a feeling of power any time you crack the throttle. However, the PD has a few drawbacks that I think make it a second place contender to a good centri setup. The single biggest problem PD blowers have is that because of the way they compress air, they generate a substantial amount of heat which they impart into the air they move, as well as the supercharger itself, which being situated direct on the engine, drives more heat into engine as well. There are really good heat exchanger systems for PD blowers, but outside of the complicated and expensive interchiller system, even a very good heat exchanger will experience heat soak after just a few pulls. Heat soak is the supercharger systems rising temps, which results in hotter air entering the engine. Engines do not like hot air, and ignition timing must be reduces to prevent detonation as these temps climb. These end result is declining performance as a PD gets hotter. It takes time “off-power” at cruising speed to recover temperatures back to nominal.

So, PD blowers suffer from heat soak issues. The blower itself is fairly heavy, and the air to water intercooling system with pump, electronics, multiple heat exchangers, coolant and reservoir is also heavier, and combined you have a much more complex and heavy setup than the air to air system of a centri. The incredible low engine speed torque can also make for a more difficult to manage power delivery, and is also harder on the engine than the more natural power delivery of the centri. Finally, to be optimized, they also like a specific camshaft designed for the needs of how a PD blower produces airflow. They also need PD blower specific torque converters to deal with the massive low engine speed torque, and prefer modest gearing to help manage all that torque on the starting line.

In contrast, the centri is a lighter, simpler setup that suffers far less from heat soak. The rising boost curve is much easier on the engine – the more modest boost levels through the midrange where peak torque occurs means that the bottom end takes much less strain than a PD blower setup will, and the power is easier to manage when launching the car. The airflow and power curve they produce is very much like a bigger, more power naturally aspirated engine, and this means that they work well with camshafts, torque converters, and gearing commonly found in naturally aspirated builds. This makes the centri a very natural upgrade path from a nicely equipped NA build.

Now, the latest in PD blower offerings such as the 2650 combined with Magnuson's take on the cooling side are closing the gap on efficiency, thermal management, and top end performance. But I still contend that the Centri actually produces a more usable power curve in a ligther, more efficient package that is easier on the engine and has better thermal stability.

As someone above already said, keep in mind that you've got a few thousand dollars of fuel system that needs to go along with whatever setup you land on. We carry several different blower manufacturers and types here at GPI, along with all the fuel system stuff you could need. If I can help, feel free to reach me directly at andrew@gwatneyperformance.com.

would a pro charger be a better route for the road course vs drag strip/street runs or just build the cooling system and stick with the oem blower if you have a zl1 with the LSA already in it. i already have the fueling capacity with 1050x aux fuel pump and e-85

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Zl_garrett

would a pro charger be a better route for the road course vs drag strip/street runs or just build the cooling system and stick with the oem blower if you have a zl1 with the LSA already in it. i already have the fueling capacity with 1050x aux fuel pump and e-85

That's a great question. It comes down to how much power do you need, and can you put a cooling system in place to manage that. There are guys that successfully road race ZL1s. Typically those dudes are going to be modest on how hard they drive the blower, and they'll have the highest capacity heat exchangers you can fit in the car - both for the blower as well as coolant and oil.

Ultimately, if your power goals are higher than mid 700whp I think the LSA is well out of it's efficiency range - it can do well over 800whp, but it's generating a lot of heat in the process. If you need that kind of power I think upgrading to a more capable blower makes the most sense. A Magnuson 2650 can make the same power much more efficiently, and that translates to less heat.

A centrifugal is another option worth considering. It changes the power curve some, but it does it's best work in that last 2500rpm of the power curve where it counts. When sized appropriately they can be very efficient, and paired with a real good, large intercooler do offer some thermal advantages over liquid cooled PD blowers.

If I had a ZL1, I'd be inclined to work with what I've got unless it proves to be unsuitable. Look to make heat exchanger upgrades to the largest available as step one!

[Zl_garrett]

Originally Posted by acammer

That's a great question. It comes down to how much power do you need, and can you put a cooling system in place to manage that. There are guys that successfully road race ZL1s. Typically those dudes are going to be modest on how hard they drive the blower, and they'll have the highest capacity heat exchangers you can fit in the car - both for the blower as well as coolant and oil.

Ultimately, if your power goals are higher than mid 700whp I think the LSA is well out of it's efficiency range - it can do well over 800whp, but it's generating a lot of heat in the process. If you need that kind of power I think upgrading to a more capable blower makes the most sense. A Magnuson 2650 can make the same power much more efficiently, and that translates to less heat.

A centrifugal is another option worth considering. It changes the power curve some, but it does it's best work in that last 2500rpm of the power curve where it counts. When sized appropriately they can be very efficient, and paired with a real good, large intercooler do offer some thermal advantages over liquid cooled PD blowers.

If I had a ZL1, I'd be inclined to work with what I've got unless it proves to be unsuitable. Look to make heat exchanger upgrades to the largest available as step one!

yeah, I wasn't thinking about putting more power into it until i get it running nice and cool on the current setup (tbh since I daily it most id do is a cam, any power levels after that I'm going to really have problems daily driving it). I have the Afco heat exchanger and cooling fans + 1/2" insulating plates, a 160* thermostat and a reinforced intercooling brick from c&r racing. But my biggest problem is iat2 temps staying low enough during long frequent pulls, it recovers quick with what I have but i think getting a higher flow intercooler pump and a different lid that can house a much larger intercooling brick/fittings will help tremendously with the problems I'm having right now.

I'm thinking of the Harrop lid since it claims better airflow (which I'm assuming will drop boost pressure a little at least leading to less heat generation) a intercooling brick over twice the size of the oem brick, but its also over a grand cheaper than the Kong or Wegner options...if you have any opinions on any lids I've mentioned they would be appreciated

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Zl_garrett

yeah, I wasn't thinking about putting more power into it until i get it running nice and cool on the current setup (tbh since I daily it most id do is a cam, any power levels after that I'm going to really have problems daily driving it). I have the Afco heat exchanger and cooling fans + 1/2" insulating plates, a 160* thermostat and a reinforced intercooling brick from c&r racing. But my biggest problem is iat2 temps staying low enough during long frequent pulls, it recovers quick with what I have but i think getting a higher flow intercooler pump and a different lid that can house a much larger intercooling brick/fittings will help tremendously with the problems I'm having right now.

I'm thinking of the Harrop lid since it claims better airflow (which I'm assuming will drop boost pressure a little at least leading to less heat generation) a intercooling brick over twice the size of the oem brick, but its also over a grand cheaper than the Kong or Wegner options...if you have any opinions on any lids I've mentioned they would be appreciated

I think you're on the right track, the more cooling surface area the more thermal capacity you'll have. The right lid can improve flow as well. We don't deal in any of those lids you mentioned directly, so unfortunately not able to help there.

[FASTFATBOY]

Magnuson Heartbeat kit is a more expensive more efficient option to the LSA.

My LS3 on 6lbs(the pulley it comes with) and headers makes 550 wheel with a manual trans.

I have the 2300 kit which I don't think they make anymore but they do have the 2650. Pretty sure you can still buy the 2300 Heartbeat kit though.

[Joe.G]

It appears I am going with an LSA kit, I do have to pick up a few odds and ends, I have lots of questions now as I really am new to the SC world and would like to do it right.

[FASTFATBOY]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

It appears I am going with an LSA kit, I do have to pick up a few odds and ends, I have lots of questions now as I really am new to the SC world and would like to do it right.

If you want to do it "right" buy the LSA separate belt system and run a dedicated belt for the blower(8 rib). This is the setup on a ZL1.

Stock LSA injectors are good for about 540 wheel with a manual trans and ZL1 fuel pump.

Run a NGK BR7EF spark plug for up to 600-700 wheel, after that you may have to go to a cooler plug.

Even with a 2.4 upper pulley the stock heat exchanger and pump work fine. Mine made 600 wheel.

I would buy the DEI heat blocking insulation for the bottom of the blower, If I ever have mine off I am doing this.

[Joe.G]

A new ADM 3 belt conversion kit is coming with the SC, I do need to source a lower pulley and Balancer and the belts. It has factory injectors and not sure if I should swap them and I need a Heat exchanger. Can you link the heat shield kit. Thank you

[FASTFATBOY]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

A new ADM 3 belt conversion kit is coming with the SC, I do need to source a lower pulley and Balancer and the belts. It has factory injectors and not sure if I should swap them and I need a Heat exchanger. Can you link the heat shield kit. Thank you

This is for regular NA intakes but should work.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/h...H1YqaDfvOc1EQA

If you aren't going over 500 wheel use the LSA injectors, you can buy the kit without injectors and buy what you need.


I would also use the LS9 intake gaskets, they are thick aluminum and act as somewhat of a heat isolator.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...waAn3jEALw_wcB

[Joe.G]

I have that already installed it when I did the GPI Rod Mod

[FASTFATBOY]

Originally Posted by Joe.G

I have that already installed it when I did the GPI Rod Mod

I don't see your point, that intake won't be used.

[Joe.G]

You linked to a product bi already have installed so I'll leave it when I do the swap. I honestly forgot I did until you posted link.