Turbo Kits/Reliability

[dracer98]

Originally Posted by FastOil

the kits looks nicely built, although I don’t like the intercooler placement/design to small and tucked behind the crash beam,, I am not sure if anyone has done any testing on these but I am sure to say intake temps are looking to be high because of IC heat soak.

Originally Posted by FastOil

in a normally aspirated I don’t care but on a boosted engine I want my temps to be as low as possible I make more power and less knock.

Is there anyone’s out there using this kit, what were your results,,,,??

I like the turbos Precision 62mm these are huge and they have 2 of them,, precision has had some issues some people don’t like them,, some people complain about reliability of these turbos over Garrett cores,,,, however precision turbos specially the 62mm cores spool very quick.

That intercooler looks just like the intercooler of my Granatelli TT system - here is a pic of that kit - this is not my engine in the picture and not me at all - I just use it as reference so you all can see the kit and intercooler set up and location

http://www.gmsvideos.com/video/6197

Note when installed in Vette it gets almost no cross flow from the front of the engine - it is more of a huge heat sink to dissipate temperature at have an auto meter duel read out gauge that tells me air temp in and air temp out – at 15psi, blasting down the fwy for say 1 or 2 miles (things happen very fast) inlet to intercooler is 225 to 240 and discharge never goes over 110 and typically hovers at 105. When the boost is set at 8 in never see temps exiting the intercooler above 90
With that said, I can understand why you worry about lack of flow but history tells us otherwise. So while I can’t argue that more air across the cores would not be better I can say with certainty as designed the system will be fine up to 1100hp
Side note: My Vette had Turbonetics and they always honored the warranty. Problem was they had to honor it 2 times and pulling the turbos in the Vette is a bitch – it now has these 6265 PTS units and no issues

[SSMINNOW]

I ordered the Hellion kit going from my experience with them in the past. If you have any questions you can just do a search for Hellion. They have been making kits for years. Im happy with the parts I received.

Just my 2 cents.

[TTI George]

Originally Posted by FastOil

the kits looks nicely built, although i dont like the intercooler placement/design to small and tucked behind the crash beam,, i am note sure if any one has done any testing on these but i am sure to say intake temps are looking to be high because of IC heat soak.

in a normally aspirated i dont care but on a boosted engine i want my temps to be as low as posible i make more power and less knock.


is there anyones out there using this kit,,, what were your results,,,, ??


i like the turbos Precision 62mm these are huge and they have 2 of them,, precision has had some issues some people dont like them,, some people complain about reliability of these turbos over Garrett cores,,,, however precision turbos specially the 62mm cores spool very quick.

The intercooler is behind the crash bar and almost 3" behind it, plenty of room for air flow. We've just begun testing and on a 75 degree day with just the dyno fans were seeing 85 degree ait at 7 psi. The core is 3.5" X 6" X 27 and will support over 1000rwhp as it does on the C5/6 kits we've use it on for years. As for the PTE turbos, not any failures here yet. The new air cooled dual BB with the tool steel cage has been performing well at the high boost levels.

[Will@Apf]

Originally Posted by FastOil

i dont like the intercooler placement/design to small and tucked behind the crash beam,, i am note sure if any one has done any testing on these but i am sure to say intake temps are looking to be high because of IC heat soak.

.

Wow, not saying your right or wrong BUT you can look at that IC and tell that info ??

[FastOil]

Originally Posted by TTI George

The intercooler is behind the crash bar and almost 3" behind it, plenty of room for air flow. We've just begun testing and on a 75 degree day with just the dyno fans were seeing 85 degree ait at 7 psi. The core is 3.5" X 6" X 27 and will support over 1000rwhp as it does on the C5/6 kits we've use it on for years. As for the PTE turbos, not any failures here yet. The new air cooled dual BB with the tool steel cage has been performing well at the high boost levels.

yes the new cores seem to be behaving very well, dont get me wrong i would buy PTE cartriges before i spend the big money for garrett, spool is greater bang for the buck is better ect..

as for your intercooler, you still have much testing to do,,, go on highway pulls and let her rip and i bet you those intake temps will rise like a mad dog, on a road course i am sure it would be much worst,,,, its just nature of dynamics.

hey i might be wrong on my car i had a 3" core crash beam was covering only 2 inches of the top portion of the IC however my unit was twice taller than your core,,,,, but then again i was running 26 lbs of boost not 6


bottom line is real world testing is what will tell how it performs,,, i am not bashing no ones product and i am sure you guys will make sure it performs.

some air temp logs would be great,

[FastOil]

Originally Posted by Will@Apf

Wow, not saying your right or wrong BUT you can look at that IC and tell that info ??

been around turbocharged cars for quite some time and i am a cold intake temps freak


Will, dont get me wrong i am sure and confident your product will perform and outperform,, but then again at 6 psi not much heat to be had therfore not much cooling needed in fact one could probly run without an IC core.

[Will@Apf]

Originally Posted by FastOil

i am a cold intake temps freak


.

Me too.... nothing wrong with that.... Im not talking as a turbo shop right now and none of my setups are in this thread .. not sure its fair to say a IC will not work on just looks alone... thats all

like you said the lower power/lower boost setups will not need to be as efficient as a high boost high power turbo cars.. i think we are talking about a little 600 hp setup.....

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by dracer98

OK - OTK asked for help and an opinion and rather than answer the question you guys say read all the other posts and threads? That’s like going to the dealer for help and the guy telling you - well did you read the manual

So< I will do what he asked and back it up with fact...The question is all about the various 2010 turbo options out there and how reliable can they be.

Today most turbo manufactures make very reliable products - That is not to be confused by the various kit makers. You have many choices and types:

Single top mount
Double top mount
Single bottom mount
Double bottom mount
and some call the muffler turbo type another option

You asked about Fastlane so you already know they offer a single top mount system.
Turbonetics has also developed a single top mount that they claim will ultimately by 50 state legal
Single top mount systems require a cross over pipe that merges all the exhaust flow and energy into the "hot side" of the turbocharger. You basically take all the heat that is radiating out of the heads which is also known as energy and channel it into the turbo.

Twin turbo top mount -
FLP, early on, developed a twin turbo kit that had top mount turbos. If 1 top mount turbo makes heat in the wrong spot then 2 top mount turbos are double trouble. In the case of FLP, it could be quite possibly the most unprofessional kit ever made. It looks like a kindergartener built it. It gives all turbo kits a bad name. This is the only kit I know of that puts the turbos up in your face.

Why I don't particularly care for the top mount design - Like I said it puts all that heat off the cylinder heads right over the valve cover (s) or better said, in the immediate surrounding area of where it is mounted. Take for example the new Turbonetics kit coming down the pike. It mounts the turbo in a location very similar to the Fastlane kit but angles it a slight bit differently a lower in the frame. In other words if the turbo on the Fastlane kit is mounted at 1 0-clock then Turbonetics mounts the turbo at a little less than 2 0-clock and shoves it forward a few inches to keep heat off the front of the engine dress.

Fastlane makes claims that the factory (General Motors) mounts their turbos up high which is actually not the case. But it is a different story for a different thread. Like they say everyone has an opinion on the subject and my opinion is - Don't ever mount a turbocharger with super hot exhaust right next to the spark plug wires, the coils, the valve covers, ABS unit and the likes. You ask why companies do it then. Simple Turbonetics tells you they would prefer to run twins but there is no way to accomplish that 50 state legally. Meaning the law states you cannot move or alter the cats at all. In fact all you guys that purchase bigger after market cats for your cars with headers are still breaking the law. Look it up if you think I am wrong. There is no such thing as a 50 state legal aftermarket performance catalytic converter. Scratch that – if you have over 50,000 miles on your car and you need new cats then you can change them... While changing them, nothing stops you from going bigger. But for the most parts it is not legal. Back to business – Turbonetics marries the exhaust at the front and mounts the single turbo high because in order to build a Y pipe AFTER THE FACTORY CATALYTICs there is no way to get a big enough single turbo under the car. So, it ends up high. Fastlane obviously has the ability to build a twin just as easy as they did the single but I would surmise now that they are pushing the big single it would be a conflicting story to push a twin. Especially when they know the twins can easily make more power in a better package – by package I mean space.

That leads us to Single turbo mounted under the car – like I said – it just doesn’t package right. Sure you could probably wedge a 60mm turbo under the car in the proximity of the front end but the turbo is only good enough to make roughly 550hp at a very high boost - this would not be optimal to say the least.

You could take the STS route and mount a big single towards the back but while your back there you may as well go duels – which is exactly what they do.

So let’s talk about twin muffler type turbos, aka the STS version, when all else fails every car manufacture makes room for a muffler – if there is space for the muffler there is space to take it out and drop in a turbo or 2. That must be STS’s motto. On the dyno, the STS kit proves that a turbo does not really mind pumping through a maze of piping in order to ultimately pressurize the engine. So what is the draw back to the STS method – Turbo lag(The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively by compressing air into the engine (aka) lag is the delay between the instant a car's accelerator is depressed and the time the turbocharger take to make boost and some would say full boost.)Whenever you talk to “anti-turbo” people they want to talk about turbo lag. A better definition would be boost lag – and boost lag can be measured in any compressor application. Certainly the centrifugal blower companies can’t preach about lag because they blowers make boost based solely on engine RPM – that means the turbo makes peak boost sooner and maintains it longer than a centrifugal. The Magnuson, Kenne Bell, Whipple crowd make boost sooner than the turbo and carry it through out the engine RPM but it comes at the cost of crank HP robbed to spin the unit. –

Back on track – The STS kit has more lag then most other twin and single turbo kits because the farther you put the turbos from the exhaust discharge of the heads the more time it makes to get them up in their sweet spot – this is also known as PUMPING LOSS –

Foot Note - Although a turbo's position in the exhaust stream does restrict exhaust flow potential to some extent, the pumping losses are much less than the parasitic drag induced by a conventional supercharger's belt or gears. In a typical gasoline-fueled engine, it's common to see 30 out of every 100 hp added by a belt driven supercharger being wasted turning the drive pulleys and belts; this compares to about 5-10 hp per every 100 suffered as pumping losses by a typically well-designed turbo installation.

Interesting to note: Considered as a system, a good twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a large single turbo system. Additionally, the twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a Magnuson/Kenne Bell/Whipple type blower, and its smaller size compared to a centrifugal supercharger permits higher compressor-wheel rotational speeds and more radical blade-tip curvature that collectively translate into greater pumping efficiency. A large single turbo system radiates heat more in line with that of a non intercooled centrifugal type.

The Twin Turbo set up is often perceived as complex and difficult to install over other systems but that is simply not the case. Sure you need a hoist, lift and or jack stands to install it but once installed it is the most maintenance free and trouble free of them all and that was the real first question – Reliability!.

So let’s talk about all the twin turbo set ups out there:

Granatelli Motor Sports – Everyone Pretty much agrees they have the nicest looking kit out there – should I say just released kit out there They run PTS turbos which are considered to best in the business and I have firsthand knowledge that the PTS 6265 turbo feed 600hp each at moderated boost levels – so this kit is what they say Able to go from Mild to Wild! How can you go wrong with Granatelli, everything they put their minds to usually is top notch – they work with Turbo Tech - that just gives this kit the 1 -2 punch over the rest in my book

Hellion Turbo Systems – They claim to also be shipping and they use 58mm Turbonetics turbos. Turbonetics put a 1 year warranty on all their turbos so that should add some piece of mind. The reviews on these guys are also pretty good so far – although you gotta wonder why they sell turbo kits but race at the track with Centrifugal stuff.

STS – we talked about them. Not sure if a want to spend 8 to 10k for a system that put the air filter right behind the rear tires but I am sure there must be a shroud for that – just not show in the pictures. But again it has the lag issue – good thing about the STS kit, the turbos come after the factory cats so they are as close to 50 state legal as you can get. – If power is not the first priority and you don’t worry about the turbos vacuuming up water from what gets thrown off the tires, this a great system as well

There are other players out there too – you just don’t hear as much because they are not quite there yet.

So while other want to tell you to “look it up” or “make your own choice” I hope this helps you in a cliff notes kind of way.

You can’t go wrong with forced induction on your Camaro and the choices are plenty

You're a regular encyclopedia - The Thing is you are darn near spot on for the most part

[Granatelli]

The facts parts - not the opinions - Those are yours:-)

[VADER SS L99]

Defenitly do your research on the product and the company when searching for a turbo kit. When I had a 4th gen I almost got a APS TT kit. At the time they were advertised as the end all/be all kit and company. I then started hearing about all these failures and then heard about a guy who took a bunch of guys money only to take off to Australia with the cash. NO refund and no product was given to the buyers. Were talking 10k systems here!

[dracer98]

That was the guy from APS - David Inall - he is gone again - you won;t have that problem from Granatelli or Hellion or STS

[SonnyakaPig]

dracer98,

I really enjoy reading your posts. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights and experiences. I'm new to the forced induction world, but I'm loving every minute of it. Keep on posting!

[dracer98]

Thank you very much. I have been around for a very long time. I have an extensive back ground in forced induction. I have worked for a lot of good people that were willing to show me a ton and I also have lived it all. So I have 1st hand experience when I comment. Naturally everyone has a slight bias but I try to be a neutral as I can be. To me, anything that forces the car to go fast is a good thing. I like nitrous too but only up to 100hp. After that it is like a super hot chick – with you now and with someone or someplace else later. It is finicky and moody but when things are right it gives you a super rush – Dare I say “bang” for the buck

[OTK_Master]

Thank you to everyone for the replies. Especially Dracer98. Very useful info, good to know. Sry I didn't reply sooner, been very busy. Ohh and if some one could post a link to the Granatelli TT kit that'd be great. I went to the website and wasn't able to find the part.