ZL1 vs GT500 This Friday.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by pdari

now let's pick on the Challenger!

Hey now leave us tanks out of it

[Raven87]

CLIFF NOTES: Just the FACTS matter... Read on if you wish.


Like many, I've been reading this thread as well as the one on SVT Forums debating the incredible ZL1 Camaro and the wicked '13 GT500 with interest. And like many, I enjoy seeing how so many people will take certain and selective SUBJECTIVE data (other peoples' opinions), some OBJECTIVE/FACTUAL data, and use all of it as OBJECTIVE (factual) data to support their SUBJECTIVE OPINION.

Funny.

For me to say the 'XYZ' car is the best car OVERALL because it felt good, looked better going around a track, seemed to have less body roll, won one lap out of 4, looked better in the staging lanes, etc, is only an OPINION. MY Opinion. My opinion is not a fact, it is only how I feel or think.

Lap and/or 1/4 mile times are FACTS (but certainly are facts that are influenced by a myriad of outside forces such as driver ability, DA, vehicle condition, tire condition, etc).

Numbers of vehicles sold are also FACTS. Horsepower and Torque ratings are FACTS. Tire size and ratings are FACTS. Number of warranty claims and owner disatisfaction reports are FACTS. And so are engine performance data such as rated numbers, dyno pulls (although these can vary but overall repeatable trends are facts), equipment specifications such as gear ratios/weight/etc... these are all facts.

Laws of physics are also FACTS. It takes a given amount of horsepower/energy to move a given amount of weight/mass a certain distance in time, overcoming gravity, rolling resistance, air resitance, etc, as well as to slow or stop the mass. Braking force is also a calculated fact - 'x' amount of stopping power is required to slow/stop a given mass within a certain distance based upon traction available (as it is for acceleration), inclusive of drag/wind resistance, etc. All of this data is FACTUAL.

Facts - that is, hard data - are irrefutable although some on both boards seem to like to use them out of context or, want to add other hypothetical support (run more laps, change tires, brake fluid, etc, etc, etc) to draw a conclusion (opnion) about which car is better (an opinion) for a given test. Some may even choose to include such clear SUBJECTIVE data as 'Gotta have it factor' to reach some 'score' based solely on the author's OPINION of given data by ranking it 1-10.

Hardly seems FACTUAL at all, does it?

So, if I say the GT500 is faster STOCK VS STOCK (and it is) that is a fact supported by a lot of data, not just magazine racing and editors' opinions.

If I say the ZL1 is the better 'overall' car, that is an opinion partly of which may be based on selective data I want to pick and choose as all the magazines have done. But...

The bottom line? If you are racing in a ZL1 at a road course or a drag strip and a 2013 GT500 is your opponent, take comfort that you may have a 'better overall' car (opinions of many) that will most likely be passed repeatedly by the GT500 (based on FACTS and real world events).

We can discuss/debate the benefits of the ZL1's suspension till the cows come home as well as interior design, visibility out of the car, trunk access, etc, etc, etc. If YOU like those features and consider them the best (an OPINION) there is nothing wrong with that and I am happy for you.

But, we can not debate facts which include the GT500 has 82 more rated horsepower and weighs ~270 lbs less. Those two FACTS alone will stand alone.

That does not mean the GT500 is the 'better' (an OPINION) car STOCK vs STOCK (100%). It only means it will be the faster/quicker in the real world with equally competent drivers. Like many have said here before - just go to any drag strip or watch any YouTube video out there in the real world.

The ZL1 is not showing its tail lights to any 2013 GT500s on any track. And that does not mean it is a 'lesser' car (again, only an OPINION). It only means it is slower, has less power, and has less horsepower (FACTS).

But there are also equally slower cars in the real world that many will say are 'better' than the GT500. Ask any Porsche, Nissan 370, M3, Miata, etc, etc, etc, and they will tell you their car is superior (an OPINION). They are not wrong - their perception is their reality and thus they think (an OPINION) their XYZ car is the 'better overall car'.

See the trend here?

Enjoy your car, no matter what you drive. I love the ZL1 and have driven it (as I have the Shelby). The ZL1 is an awesome ride.

But it is NOT faster/quicker (FACTUAL) than the '13 Shelby no matter how much I may think/want/wish (OPINION) it is - BASED ON FACTS.

[HDRDTD]

It's just as I said a long time ago.

No matter what data is reported, all sides will find a way to intrepret the same data in a way that it supports their point of view.

that's just the way it is today with any given subject matter.

Just look at all the suties people quote to say a particular food/drug is good for you, yet another sudy will show the exact opposite.

This debate over which car is better will NEVER be resolved.

[gm_joe]

A lengthy post but the fact is you can't argue with any of it. Well put.

[AZ-ZL1]

Originally Posted by jewc75

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FBVohx6uzTM

modded 5.0 ? A single run ? a 1/10 of a sec ?

Still BS. Stang driver > ZL1 Driver

Originally Posted by 9secs

The guy also mentioned in the top youtube post that it was his 5.0, and the camaro ran a 12.9 later on while he could run a best of 13.2 . Thats racing... 5.0 cut a way better light, cant win them all. Run that race 10 more times and it would probably favor the zl1 8/10 times.

Agree, cut a much better light and managed a win. Seen same result with a Challenger. Advantage : Driver

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by Raven87

CLIFF NOTES: Just the FACTS matter... Read on if you wish.


Like many, I've been reading this thread as well as the one on SVT Forums debating the incredible ZL1 Camaro and the wicked '13 GT500 with interest. And like many, I enjoy seeing how so many people will take certain and selective SUBJECTIVE data (other peoples' opinions), some OBJECTIVE/FACTUAL data, and use all of it as OBJECTIVE (factual) data to support their SUBJECTIVE OPINION.

Funny.

For me to say the 'XYZ' car is the best car OVERALL because it felt good, looked better going around a track, seemed to have less body roll, won one lap out of 4, looked better in the staging lanes, etc, is only an OPINION. MY Opinion. My opinion is not a fact, it is only how I feel or think.

Lap and/or 1/4 mile times are FACTS (but certainly are facts that are influenced by a myriad of outside forces such as driver ability, DA, vehicle condition, tire condition, etc).

Numbers of vehicles sold are also FACTS. Horsepower and Torque ratings are FACTS. Tire size and ratings are FACTS. Number of warranty claims and owner disatisfaction reports are FACTS. And so are engine performance data such as rated numbers, dyno pulls (although these can vary but overall repeatable trends are facts), equipment specifications such as gear ratios/weight/etc... these are all facts.

Laws of physics are also FACTS. It takes a given amount of horsepower/energy to move a given amount of weight/mass a certain distance in time, overcoming gravity, rolling resistance, air resitance, etc, as well as to slow or stop the mass. Braking force is also a calculated fact - 'x' amount of stopping power is required to slow/stop a given mass within a certain distance based upon traction available (as it is for acceleration), inclusive of drag/wind resistance, etc. All of this data is FACTUAL.

Facts - that is, hard data - are irrefutable although some on both boards seem to like to use them out of context or, want to add other hypothetical support (run more laps, change tires, brake fluid, etc, etc, etc) to draw a conclusion (opnion) about which car is better (an opinion) for a given test. Some may even choose to include such clear SUBJECTIVE data as 'Gotta have it factor' to reach some 'score' based solely on the author's OPINION of given data by ranking it 1-10.

Hardly seems FACTUAL at all, does it?

So, if I say the GT500 is faster STOCK VS STOCK (and it is) that is a fact supported by a lot of data, not just magazine racing and editors' opinions.

If I say the ZL1 is the better 'overall' car, that is an opinion partly of which may be based on selective data I want to pick and choose as all the magazines have done. But...

The bottom line? If you are racing in a ZL1 at a road course or a drag strip and a 2013 GT500 is your opponent, take comfort that you may have a 'better overall' car (opinions of many) that will most likely be passed repeatedly by the GT500 (based on FACTS and real world events).

We can discuss/debate the benefits of the ZL1's suspension till the cows come home as well as interior design, visibility out of the car, trunk access, etc, etc, etc. If YOU like those features and consider them the best (an OPINION) there is nothing wrong with that and I am happy for you.

But, we can not debate facts which include the GT500 has 82 more rated horsepower and weighs ~270 lbs less. Those two FACTS alone will stand alone.

That does not mean the GT500 is the 'better' (an OPINION) car STOCK vs STOCK (100%). It only means it will be the faster/quicker in the real world with equally competent drivers. Like many have said here before - just go to any drag strip or watch any YouTube video out there in the real world.

The ZL1 is not showing its tail lights to any 2013 GT500s on any track. And that does not mean it is a 'lesser' car (again, only an OPINION). It only means it is slower, has less power, and has less horsepower (FACTS).

But there are also equally slower cars in the real world that many will say are 'better' than the GT500. Ask any Porsche, Nissan 370, M3, Miata, etc, etc, etc, and they will tell you their car is superior (an OPINION). They are not wrong - their perception is their reality and thus they think (an OPINION) their XYZ car is the 'better overall car'.

See the trend here?

Enjoy your car, no matter what you drive. I love the ZL1 and have driven it (as I have the Shelby). The ZL1 is an awesome ride.

But it is NOT faster/quicker (FACTUAL) than the '13 Shelby no matter how much I may think/want/wish (OPINION) it is - BASED ON FACTS.

Great post! Someone said here before, Facts hurt when they don't favor us.

I would like to hear GoldenBears response to this post.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by pdari

I would like to hear GoldenBears response to this post.

I don't. It will be a pretentious diatribe full of conjecture, embellishment, hyperbole and likely be devoid of any concessions to the points made by Raven87.

[jewc75]

Im waiting for the chance to show a zl1 what a tune/tire only 5.0 will do. Im sorry but GM failed its fan base. Im a longtime GM guy, had camaro's and trans am's all my life. My family all drive GM. The 5.0 is just a better bargain for what it is. I wish the ZL1 would have lived up to the hype.

[AZ-ZL1]

Drive one. It just might sway your opinion, aside from a 1320.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Raven87

So, if I say the GT500 is faster STOCK VS STOCK (and it is) that is a fact supported by a lot of data, not just magazine racing and editors' opinions.

The bottom line? If you are racing in a ZL1 at a road course or a drag strip and a 2013 GT500 is your opponent, take comfort that you may have a 'better overall' car (opinions of many) that will most likely be passed repeatedly by the GT500 (based on FACTS and real world events).

Actually, it's opinion. You didn't post any facts, just a lot of arguments. The same thing everyone you're kvetching about did.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Actually, it's opinion. You didn't post any facts, just a lot of arguments. The same thing everyone you're kvetching about did.

Not an opinion. You must have skipped over all the facts.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Raven87

Not an opinion. You must have skipped over all the facts.

There weren't any.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by tooslow

I don't. It will be a pretentious diatribe full of conjecture, embellishment, hyperbole and likely be devoid of any concessions to the points made by Raven87.

Don't hate. Celebrate.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by HpJunkie69

Does he really need to post the FACTS that has been posted a million times already?

GT500 has beaten the ZL1 at the dragstrip and road course. the same can not be said for ZL1...

I think if you're going to complain about Camaro owners not backing their arguments up with facts, then yeah, he has to post them or be a hypocrite.

Amirite?

Edit: He also accuses ZL1 guys of bench racing, then proceeds to bench race the GT500 to victory and calls it fact.