FenwickHockey65's Great Thread of GM Knowledge

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I understand the market considerations. But brand image is important as well.
But when you think of Porsche, do you think crossovers or sports cars?

You think 911, but of course their best selling vehicle's are crossovers because that's what the market demands. Although Porsche and Cadillac are not the best comparison. Cadillac and Audi perhaps. Porsche is a premium performance car manufacturer that also offers a few luxury products. Cadillac is a luxury car manufacturer that also offers a few performance products.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

if you ask anyone to think of a Porsche odds are they'll come back with the 911. That is the heart and soul of the brand. With BMW, its the 3 series. For Cadillac, the role of the iconic, brand defining car is held by the El Dorado. Now, its been about 15 years since they had an El Dorado & even more since they had a good one. But thats still the car that most people think of when they picture what a Cadillac should be.

Porsche - 911
BMW - 3-series
MB - S-class

These companies spent decades building these products that now define their respective classes. Cadillac (as it exists today) is behind in building its brand image but I disagree that people think of an El Dorado when they think of Cadillac. Hell, I just had to Google image search El Dorado to remember what one looked like. Maybe it's just my generation but when I think of Cadillac, I think of the Escalade. Big, brash, American. It also happens to be the most expensive and profitable model Cadillac offers.

People don't want sedans right now. "Brand image" doesn't mean much if the brand fails because its not building what the market wants.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

To be fair though, we don't really know anything at all about CT8. If it was the $300k+ super luxury sedan rumored, I had my doubts as to the viability of that program in the first place. If it was the S-class competitor, then its cancellation is much more disappointing.

MB sold what, 20,000 S-classes last year? BMW sold 9,000 7-series. Porsche sold 5,000 Panamera's. Audi sold 5,000 A8's. If Cadillac currently had a full line-up of products EXCEPT an S-class competitor, then I suppose you could make the case to try and break in to this market. But Cadillac has much bigger needs right now in much bigger markets.

Originally Posted by shaffe

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ct8-cancelled/

According to road and track it was to be an S class competitor.

What the hell is going on at Cadillac. They have these great cars that arent selling, they are in the middle of introducing an awful naming structure and now cancelling the flagship program.

Nearly every luxury sedan was down last year, except for the cheapo A3's and CLA's of the world. Global Cadillac sales were up 7.5%, and of course SUV's/CUV's led the way...so why not give the market what it wants instead of throwing away money on a large, high-dollar sedan nobody will buy?

Originally Posted by khell86

My opinion is the exterior styling. It's just rather bland compared to other offerings. Their interiors are great now and I think they're # 2 in class behind MB, but yeah those exterior looks. Didn't the Caddy chief say they were going to start adjusting their designs and move towards a more softer and rounder look instead of the edge thing they're doing now?

Funny I would have said the opposite. I find the exteriors to be fantastic and the interiors to be marginal vs competition. Sure the ELR and Escalade interiors show Cadillac is capable of more. I haven't sat in the CT6 or XT5 yet so I can't comment but MB, Audi, Jaguar, Porsche, Volvo, BMW, Aston, Maserati interiors at the high end are fantastic. It's the one area I feel Cadillac is dragging its feet.

[FenwickHockey65]

Chris Doane (who has pretty decent sources) is saying the rumors aren't entirely accurate.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

You think 911, but of course their best selling vehicle's are crossovers because that's what the market demands. Although Porsche and Cadillac are not the best comparison. Cadillac and Audi perhaps. Porsche is a premium performance car manufacturer that also offers a few luxury products. Cadillac is a luxury car manufacturer that also offers a few performance products.



Porsche - 911
BMW - 3-series
MB - S-class

These companies spent decades building these products that now define their respective classes. Cadillac (as it exists today) is behind in building its brand image but I disagree that people think of an El Dorado when they think of Cadillac. Hell, I just had to Google image search El Dorado to remember what one looked like. Maybe it's just my generation but when I think of Cadillac, I think of the Escalade. Big, brash, American. It also happens to be the most expensive and profitable model Cadillac offers.

People don't want sedans right now. "Brand image" doesn't mean much if the brand fails because its not building what the market wants.



MB sold what, 20,000 S-classes last year? BMW sold 9,000 7-series. Porsche sold 5,000 Panamera's. Audi sold 5,000 A8's. If Cadillac currently had a full line-up of products EXCEPT an S-class competitor, then I suppose you could make the case to try and break in to this market. But Cadillac has much bigger needs right now in much bigger markets.



Nearly every luxury sedan was down last year, except for the cheapo A3's and CLA's of the world. Global Cadillac sales were up 7.5%, and of course SUV's/CUV's led the way...so why not give the market what it wants instead of throwing away money on a large, high-dollar sedan nobody will buy?



Funny I would have said the opposite. I find the exteriors to be fantastic and the interiors to be marginal vs competition. Sure the ELR and Escalade interiors show Cadillac is capable of more. I haven't sat in the CT6 or XT5 yet so I can't comment but MB, Audi, Jaguar, Porsche, Volvo, BMW, Aston, Maserati interiors at the high end are fantastic. It's the one area I feel Cadillac is dragging its feet.

I agree with you that the market right now wants SUVs/CUVs. That still doesn't make it ok that CTS and ATS sales have been disappointing. While the other makes were down, they were not down as much as Cadillac was.

BMW 5 series in 2014 52,704 and in 2015 44,162, down a total of 8542 cars or 16%.

Cadillac CTS 31,115 sold in 2014 and 19,485 in 2015, down a total 11,630 that's down 37% I don't care what way you spin that, having sales be down 37% is not good. I would bet part of it is what you said, more people are leaning towards SUV/CUV but down 37%!

[marcgo2]

Originally Posted by shaffe

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ct8-cancelled/

According to road and track it was to be an S class competitor.

What the hell is going on at Cadillac. They have these great cars that arent selling, they are in the middle of introducing an awful naming structure and now cancelling the flagship program.

I agree, just like Pontiac and the G3, G5, G6, G8. I had a G8, one of my favorite cars ever, but a stupid name.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

You think 911, but of course their best selling vehicle's are crossovers because that's what the market demands. Although Porsche and Cadillac are not the best comparison. Cadillac and Audi perhaps. Porsche is a premium performance car manufacturer that also offers a few luxury products. Cadillac is a luxury car manufacturer that also offers a few performance products.

I realize that Porsche is not a direct competitor to Cadillac. I only brought up Porsche & the 911 as an example of brand association. How despite the fact that most of their sales are not sports cars, people still consider them to be a sports car brand.

These companies spent decades building these products that now define their respective classes. Cadillac (as it exists today) is behind in building its brand image but I disagree that people think of an El Dorado when they think of Cadillac. Hell, I just had to Google image search El Dorado to remember what one looked like. Maybe it's just my generation

I don't think a good Eldorado has even been made in my lifetime, so I'm not sure its a generational thing. That said ...

but when I think of Cadillac, I think of the Escalade. Big, brash, American. It also happens to be the most expensive and profitable model Cadillac offers.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

That is precisely what an Eldorado was, or at least what it was supposed to be. Big, bold, brash and apologetically American. Its what people love about them, its what people hate about them.

People don't want sedans right now. "Brand image" doesn't mean much if the brand fails because its not building what the market wants.




Nearly every luxury sedan was down last year, except for the cheapo A3's and CLA's of the world. Global Cadillac sales were up 7.5%, and of course SUV's/CUV's led the way...so why not give the market what it wants instead of throwing away money on a large, high-dollar sedan nobody will buy?

I never said that they should only build sedans from now until the end of time. They can and should sell both sedans and crossovers/SUVs. There is space in the Cadillac showroom for at least 2 more crossovers (one small, one large) in addition to flagship sedan. But here's the thing: it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. The two can work in concert with each other to build a better brand.


Flagships/halo cars typically serve as a sales & revenue multiplier, more than as direct sources of income themselves. They are as much about image advertising as anything else. It works different ways for different types of products. In a luxury brand they define what everyone should expect from the rest of the offerings. It also draws more attention to the brand, driving showroom traffic & increasing overall sales (I'm sorry, but that CT8 is $119,685. But right over here with have a CTS for half as much ...). And like I said in my previous post, it elevates the rest of the offerings by association. That can nudge average transaction prices up for those other vehicles (Anything that shares a lot with something as special as a CT8 must be worth the money ... right?).

In essence, flagship products make more people actually want to buy your other more mundane offerings. Its not a requirement, obviously, but it can does a lot for making the difference between being a successful brand & an also ran.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Chris Doane (who has pretty decent sources) is saying the rumors aren't entirely accurate.

Thats good

Originally Posted by marcgo2

I agree, just like Pontiac and the G3, G5, G6, G8. I had a G8, one of my favorite cars ever, but a stupid name.

I hated that scheme too. But there was at least some logic behind it, at least at first.

G6 = Grand Am, 6th generation)
G8 = Grand Prix, 8th generation)

Then the G5 and G3 (seriously ... who the hell thought that Pontiac needed the G3) were just named that way because of their size relative to the other two G#s. And I have no idea what would have happened with a successors the G6 & G8 (or the other ones for that matter). Would the G6 replacement be a G7? Followed by a G8? Thankfully we never had to find out.

All that said ... Solstice wasn't a bad name for a roadster.

[ssrs2lt]

Letter numbering names makes little sense for Cadillac..being bold isn't chasing err following existing European names..and I still say that car is weird..Hahaha

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by ssrs2lt

Letter numbering names makes little sense for Cadillac..being bold isn't chasing err following existing European names..and I still say that car is weird..Hahaha

What car? Like I said we literally have no idea what it looks like.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Chris Doane (who has pretty decent sources) is saying the rumors aren't entirely accurate.

My suspicion is the CT8 is delayed while other products are prioritized. GM didn't invest hundreds of millions into Omega for the CT6. I suspect the 7-passenger Omega-based crossover will be prioritized over the CT8.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I agree with you

You should have stopped right there

Originally Posted by shaffe

That still doesn't make it ok that CTS and ATS sales have been disappointing. While the other makes were down, they were not down as much as Cadillac was.

BMW 5 series in 2014 52,704 and in 2015 44,162, down a total of 8542 cars or 16%.

Cadillac CTS 31,115 sold in 2014 and 19,485 in 2015, down a total 11,630 that's down 37% I don't care what way you spin that, having sales be down 37% is not good. I would bet part of it is what you said, more people are leaning towards SUV/CUV but down 37%!

You neglect to mention the changeover to the new Alpha based, third generation CTS that occurred in for the 2015MY. The second generation CTS sales had been shrinking since 2011. Now introduce an all new CTS that moves upmarket and commands higher prices in a shrinking luxury sedan market and you get a 37% decline. As you said, even the established players in the market - BMW was down 16%, the E-class was down 25%. It sucks, you cry yourself to sleep at night because of it , but not a surprise when you look at the market.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

That is precisely what an Eldorado was, or at least what it was supposed to be. Big, bold, brash and apologetically American. Its what people love about them, its what people hate about them.

You've substantiated my point, I think. The Escalade IS the flagship car for the brand. Why does Cadillac have to build a six-figure luxo-barge to be the flagship? People want SUV's and crossovers. They already have the large luxury SUV that defines the category. MB built an image around the S-class. IMO Cadillac should build its image around the Escalade.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I never said that they should only build sedans from now until the end of time. They can and should sell both sedans and crossovers/SUVs. There is space in the Cadillac showroom for at least 2 more crossovers (one small, one large) in addition to flagship sedan. But here's the thing: it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. The two can work in concert with each other to build a better brand.

I don't work in the auto industry but it would surprise me if Cadillac had unlimited resources to develop every product they want at once. Priorities have to be set. Right now a large luxury sedan in a shrinking market is not a priority. Back to my comment above, why are you so insistent that the flagship product has to be a sedan? Because the Germans did 40 years ago?

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Flagships/halo cars typically serve as a sales & revenue multiplier, more than as direct sources of income themselves. They are as much about image advertising as anything else. It works different ways for different types of products. In a luxury brand they define what everyone should expect from the rest of the offerings. It also draws more attention to the brand, driving showroom traffic & increasing overall sales (I'm sorry, but that CT8 is $119,685. But right over here with have a CTS for half as much ...). And like I said in my previous post, it elevates the rest of the offerings by association. That can nudge average transaction prices up for those other vehicles (Anything that shares a lot with something as special as a CT8 must be worth the money ... right?).

In essence, flagship products make more people actually want to buy your other more mundane offerings. Its not a requirement, obviously, but it can does a lot for making the difference between being a successful brand & an also ran.

Right, so buyers step into the showroom to see the Escalade but can't stomach it's $90k price tag...but right over here is the best selling 5-passenger luxury crossover that costs half as much..

[FenwickHockey65]

I'd argue a flagship sedan along the lines of whatever a proposed CT8 would be does more for the brand's image than anything else. It's not going to light the sales charts on fire but it will draw more attention to Cadillac and help reestablish its position in the luxury market.

It goes along the same lines of what's happening right now. Up until the 3rd gen, CTS was always a tweener, value proposition car. You get a larger car than a 3-series or C-class for less money than a 5-series or E-class. That didn't help its perception in the market though, and it made Cadillac look like a "bargain" luxury brand. Now CTS ATPs are at record levels, but sales have suffered as a result (in addition to the downturn in the luxury sedan market).

Further compounding the problem is from graphics leaked from Cadillac presentations, CT6 is actually positioned as a midsize luxury car in their proposed future lineup. There was supposed to be two sedans below it (a subcompact and compact) and one above it with other variants dispersed throughout (like a coupe, convertible, and two V-series models). CT6's lower than expected pricing structure seems to allude to that as well.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

My suspicion is the CT8 is delayed while other products are prioritized. GM didn't invest hundreds of millions into Omega for the CT6. I suspect the 7-passenger Omega-based crossover will be prioritized over the CT8.




You should have stopped right there



You neglect to mention the changeover to the new Alpha based, third generation CTS that occurred in for the 2015MY. The second generation CTS sales had been shrinking since 2011. Now introduce an all new CTS that moves upmarket and commands higher prices in a shrinking luxury sedan market and you get a 37% decline. As you said, even the established players in the market - BMW was down 16%, the E-class was down 25%. It sucks, you cry yourself to sleep at night because of it , but not a surprise when you look at the market.



You've substantiated my point, I think. The Escalade IS the flagship car for the brand. Why does Cadillac have to build a six-figure luxo-barge to be the flagship? People want SUV's and crossovers. They already have the large luxury SUV that defines the category. MB built an image around the S-class. IMO Cadillac should build its image around the Escalade.



I don't work in the auto industry but it would surprise me if Cadillac had unlimited resources to develop every product they want at once. Priorities have to be set. Right now a large luxury sedan in a shrinking market is not a priority. Back to my comment above, why are you so insistent that the flagship product has to be a sedan? Because the Germans did 40 years ago?




Right, so buyers step into the showroom to see the Escalade but can't stomach it's $90k price tag...but right over here is the best selling 5-passenger luxury crossover that costs half as much..

Alpha based CTS went on sale in October of 13 as 2014. So we have 2 years of Alpha CTS and sales have declined each year of Alpha CTS. Yes like you said, part of it is lux sedans as a whole are down, but Cadillac seems to be getting hit a bit harder...but its not because the cars are crappy so what is it?

BTW you need to come around more, this place can get boring with out you to debate lol

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I'd argue a flagship sedan along the lines of whatever a proposed CT8 would be does more for the brand's image than anything else. It's not going to light the sales charts on fire but it will draw more attention to Cadillac and help reestablish its position in the luxury market.

Sure, but at what cost? Does that "attention drawn" to the brand yield guaranteed sales like a XT3 and XT7 on the showroom floor? I agree it would be nice to have if there weren't huge gaping holes in the hot segments of their product lineup.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Now CTS ATPs are at record levels, but sales have suffered as a result (in addition to the downturn in the luxury sedan market).

Sales (volume) isn't the goal, profit is. If CTS profit decreased 5% last year in a market that contracted 20% then I'm not concerned. No one in this discussion knows how much profit is being made on the third gen CTS vs previous Sigma II car. Cadillac wanted to move the car up market and they did. Now it's dangerously close to the CT6 price point so maybe it will come down a touch.

I hate to see a sub-compact Cadillac. The Germans went there to target lower income but these cars are garbage with nice badges. This is what Cadillac needs to avoid.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Alpha based CTS went on sale in October of 13 as 2014. So we have 2 years of Alpha CTS and sales have declined each year of Alpha CTS. Yes like you said, part of it is lux sedans as a whole are down, but Cadillac seems to be getting hit a bit harder...but its not because the cars are crappy so what is it?

BTW you need to come around more, this place can get boring with out you to debate lol

You are correct (pains me to say) the CTS was in its second full year last year. Perception lags reality. As Fenwick pointed out, Cadillac positioned itself with the CTS as the cheaper alternative to the Germans and for 10 years perpetuated that image. Then Johan decides to push for more premium products and prices. I'm probably one of the few that agree with his strategy. We are slogging through the growing pains right now. The products are better than they've ever been and ATPs reflect the move up-market. But there lingers the perception that Cadillac isn't on par with the Germans, and in many ways they're not. But they are moving in the right direction, just takes time.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

I hate to see a sub-compact Cadillac. The Germans went there to target lower income but these cars are garbage with nice badges. This is what Cadillac needs to avoid.

As I understand it, most of the motivation for the CLA was CAFE. They need smaller, more efficient cars. Sure, Mercedes has Smart but those things barely sell.

Cadillac doesn't need to resort to such things, since they get lumped in with Chevy, Buick, and GMC for CAFE (afterall, the C does stand for Corporate). So for Caddy, its more of an issue of wanting to play in that segment rather than needing to.

[FenwickHockey65]

Ed Welburn has announced his retirement.