Open Letter from Al Oppenhieser to the Camaro Nation and Ford.

[SSmoked]

Originally Posted by Sav

the GT500 is going to get "stomped" by the ZL1.

QFT

[Rice Killer]

Originally Posted by SSmoked

QFT

That's all I got out of his post too. Selective reading hehe

[Bad70supreme]

Originally Posted by Sav

What kills me are all the fanboys who have never driven a supercharged, high HP/TQ car suggesting that any 580HP vehicles on street radials is going to magically dead hook just because it has a trick MR and IRS. Sure, I'm sure GM's PTM will help launch the car with minimal wheels spin, but only at the cost of reduced ET's compared to what the car might be capable of with no launch control and a set of drag radials. Chances are, just as many ZL1 drivers are going to go up in smoke on launch as GT500's do until they learn how to drive the car.

Thats not what I am talking about... I am talking exit speed and the ability to get hard on the throttle at speed without loosing control! Drag racing is only 1 aspect of the car and performance, I am pretty sure if this stang comes out they will have the strip ruled... not in a road race or auto X though, thats were the tech of the camaro"s suspension has an advantage! Think about it, the camaro's suspension is simular to what they did with the ZR1 and CTS V... those car's kick all kind of AWD ass for a reason, its not just fast in the straights it corners just as good and thats what GM was shooting for with the ZL1! BTW... I have owned a few 500-600hp car's

[2012ZL1]

I don't see the big deal over the Shelby...really...70 hp. BIG DEAL. I can pulley swap that difference, and the ZL1 is still 10X the rounded performance car, its GM, its far prettier,it will be cheaper, and you don't have to add a buch of "packs" to get it to perform to your satisfaction. I am glad for one thing about the Shelby...70 hp from them will gain us Chevy guys probably about 100 hp next go around which is fine by me!..

[Scarrzz]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

Clearly by my screen name I am nothing more than a Mustang enthusiast who has had more than a healthy dose of discussion on several different forums. Odds are that most of my comments will be bypassed in a thread as busy as this one, but I suppos that shouldn't stop me from putting forth a few points. I'll try to keep them as organized and 'medium' winded as possible.

First, and this is probably my favorite point. Regardless of whichever car wins this 'war' for the year, I find it VERY difficult to believe that potential buyers, let alone those of you with orders already placed, are going to back out of your pride and joy. People who buy a 50-60,000 dollar Muscle/Pony car are lunatics. Just because one or the other wins some race on a European track by a second or less does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that you're suddenly going to love your dream car any less.

Secondly, and this point has been hammered home over and over, nobody really knows what the GT500 is capable of. Sure, the last few years it's been an overweight, slightly out of control pig (see also: almost every muscle car pre 20xx lol) but so has the camaro. The ZL1 is going to be a son of a bitch, hands down, regardless of where it finishes.

Next, I've done a fair share of 'dwelling' on this forum, other forums, and more than a healthy dose of Mustang forums to know that either way, despite what happens in a magazine, or factory sanctioned race, the winner is going to talk crap, the loser will make excuses, and next year will be a totally different occurance for both sides.

I can't sit here and say that I have not seen more than a fair share of blind fanboyism on this site, but I'd be lying if I even tried to pretend I hadn't seen plenty on the Mustang/Ford sites I frequent.

If you've read this, thanks for wasting your time

One more thing....... *Taking my chance to show my Mustang fan-ism*

IF, and I put a heavy heavy emphasis on if, the GT500 stickers as a base model around 52-53K (which as hard as it may be to swallow, is very feasible), can be had with all the track options for under 60K, and proceeds to outperform the ZL1 in every aspect, then there are going to be a TON of individuals who are going to have to learn one HUGE part of life. "You can't always be number one. And really, WTF is so bad about being number two?"

I'll be ordering my car December 15th of 2011. (Assuming that's the actual ordering start for the Shelbys) Grabber blue, stripe delete, performance package, and recaros. Happy hunting fellas!

Kewl, and welcome.

I'm looking forward to the contest. I do enjoy talking smack about the Rust-stains, but lots of us know it's just a bunch of folks that fell in love with ovals instead of bowties. Enjoy your ride.

[Betiwin]

I love you guys that can't take the truth. You fire back with grammar issues. I don't have a dog in this race as I already own a zeta car and a GT500. Would love to get a slush box ZL1 for my wife. I am however not blinded by foolish brand loyalty to know both cars are gonna be great. So go "dolt" yourself little guy. Back to the debate about two awsome machines.

[/QUOTE]First of all, mags are rags. They are biased and one sided...ie...not objective. Secondly, your writing skills are atrocious. If you want to be taken seriously please use a spell checker or use the King's english properly. You sound like a dolt. [/QUOTE]

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

Clearly by my screen name I am nothing more than a Mustang enthusiast who has had more than a healthy dose of discussion on several different forums. Odds are that most of my comments will be bypassed in a thread as busy as this one, but I suppos that shouldn't stop me from putting forth a few points. I'll try to keep them as organized and 'medium' winded as possible.

First, and this is probably my favorite point. Regardless of whichever car wins this 'war' for the year, I find it VERY difficult to believe that potential buyers, let alone those of you with orders already placed, are going to back out of your pride and joy. People who buy a 50-60,000 dollar Muscle/Pony car are lunatics. Just because one or the other wins some race on a European track by a second or less does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that you're suddenly going to love your dream car any less.

Secondly, and this point has been hammered home over and over, nobody really knows what the GT500 is capable of. Sure, the last few years it's been an overweight, slightly out of control pig (see also: almost every muscle car pre 20xx lol) but so has the camaro. The ZL1 is going to be a son of a bitch, hands down, regardless of where it finishes.

Next, I've done a fair share of 'dwelling' on this forum, other forums, and more than a healthy dose of Mustang forums to know that either way, despite what happens in a magazine, or factory sanctioned race, the winner is going to talk crap, the loser will make excuses, and next year will be a totally different occurance for both sides.

I can't sit here and say that I have not seen more than a fair share of blind fanboyism on this site, but I'd be lying if I even tried to pretend I hadn't seen plenty on the Mustang/Ford sites I frequent.

If you've read this, thanks for wasting your time

One more thing....... *Taking my chance to show my Mustang fan-ism*

IF, and I put a heavy heavy emphasis on if, the GT500 stickers as a base model around 52-53K (which as hard as it may be to swallow, is very feasible), can be had with all the track options for under 60K, and proceeds to outperform the ZL1 in every aspect, then there are going to be a TON of individuals who are going to have to learn one HUGE part of life. "You can't always be number one. And really, WTF is so bad about being number two?"

I'll be ordering my car December 15th of 2011. (Assuming that's the actual ordering start for the Shelbys) Grabber blue, stripe delete, performance package, and recaros. Happy hunting fellas!

Please stay on this site.. Please.


You, Sir, are Welcome here..

[2010SLVRBULIT]

..if you're gonna "talk the talk"...

[den318]

My guess at the 13 GT500 performance numbers. Launch control, upgraded suspension etc. It's going to be a beast. Chevy need to step up their game. Not just the ZL1, the SS as well. Chevy is being lazy just because the Camaro is #1 in sales. Is there any changes at all for the Camaro from 2010 to 2012? Very minor at best and nothing performance wise.

2013 GT500
0-60 in 3.6-3.8 sec
1/4 miles in 11.5-11.8 @125mph
Ring time 7:25-7:35

2013 Gt
0-60 4.5 sec
1/4 miles 12.6 @ 110mph+

2013 Boss
0-60 4.1 sec
1/4 miles 12.2 @114 mph


Anyone wants to play the guessing game too?

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by svtman

I'm having a hard time understand why GM would want to challenge the GT500 to a road race. Even if GM were to win that race which i'm not sure it will it's not the reason people buy this type of car.

These are muscle cars with a ton of power meant for the most part to tear it up in a straight line. This is how most people drive these cars anyways. When you see racing videos you always see quarter miles races at the track or a roll on the highway. In the end this is what people care about and brag about.

People are not buying these cars to go out and pull a fast and furious around town. So what this tells me is that GM is saying yeah the GT500 is faster in a straight line, but we might be faster on a road coarse and in the end even if the camaro wins on the road coarse the real bragging rights in america is in the HP and straight line performance.

This post isn't about bashing the camaro, but just trying to understand GM's thinking.

Welcome to the 21st century where Muscle Cars can turn and brake as well.

[armysig]

Originally Posted by den318

Chevy need to step up their game. Not just the ZL1, the SS as well. Chevy is being lazy just because the Camaro is #1 in sales. Is there any changes at all for the Camaro from 2010 to 2012? Very minor at best and nothing performance wise.

Huh? I guess you don't follow the boards much. When the Camaro was introduced it out performed the current mustang ('10) by a lot. Yes the SS has maintained it's current engine numbers, But the V6 has a new engine that produces more HP than the 2010 and 11 models.
Now, chevy has come out the the ZL-1 that competes with the CURRENT GT500, and once again Chevy should (we know it will) out perform it.
Ever since the release of the Camaro, Mustang has been playing catch up. How many years did it take for them to come out with a new engine that not only has more HP but better fuel milage?

Now I think it's fun to see that the big 3 are putting out some fun and fantastic cars. There is something for everyone, and not everyone is going to like what the others are producing.

Now how can Chevy come back with something for the future GT500 when it's not even getting made. (yet) It's still in R&D and T&E (Reserch and developemnt and Test and Evaluation)

When Ford starts making the car and you can buy it, let's talk! Until then it's kind of a moot point.

[den318]

My point is that Chevy has not done much to improve the Camaro since 2010. Ford came out with the 2011 5.0 to combat the Camaro and according to mostly everyone, it is a tiny bit faster car. Ford could have leave good enough alone...ie like Chevy. But for 2013, they make another update. New front and rear, HID standard, Recaro seats options, 4" lcd in the dash with apps. Track package with better brakes and suspension+ 420hp. What has Chevy done? Change the steering wheels and the interior a little bit. They need to do more with their bread and butter model (the SS)

[obzidian]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

Canadian...

Ah, makes sense now.

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by den318

My point is that Chevy has not done much to improve the Camaro since 2010. Ford came out with the 2011 5.0 to combat the Camaro and according to mostly everyone, it is a tiny bit faster car. Ford could have leave good enough alone...ie like Chevy. But for 2013, they make another update. New front and rear, HID standard, Recaro seats options, 4" lcd in the dash with apps. Track package with better brakes and suspension+ 420hp. What has Chevy done? Change the steering wheels and the interior a little bit. They need to do more with their bread and butter model (the SS)

You have somewhat of a point but with regard to the Camaro V6 and SS, but why change much from what is clearly selling? If the customer surveys keep coming back with excellent overall grades, and people keep buying the Camaro over the Mustang, why change much so soon? Ford has been forced to make changes to attract a better % of sales back in their corner.