'14 AGM 1SS/1LE Track build [COTW 11/17/14]

[X25]

Originally Posted by Superman09

Love your build! I'm trying to go down the same road, only to a slightly lesser degree as I don't race nearly as much as you do at this point. But I gotta say your car looks killer, and you relentless pursuit of problem solving is really cool to follow.

I also started with a much 'lesser' degree. In this hobby, usually one follows the other, and all in a sudden, you have the Z/28 aero just so your wide (Z/28) wheels don't sand-blast your paint

[X25]

I'll be back at ORP on Monday! Last time, I was able to do 1:57.25 with Hankook RS-3s; I'm looking forward to seeing what I will get to do with the Trofeo Rs. I will also get to try my new gigantic oil cooler, of course.

This track is actually 250 miles away one way, but I just replaced my truck with an SUV, and I am a bit reluctant towing my car with an SUV that's not even broken in yet. What do you guys think? Would the Trofeo Rs have any issue adding 500 miles of highway driving? I am guessing not..

[AG1LE]

Drove mine about 300 miles one way to the track on Trofeo Rs this weekend. I guess it depends on how quickly that track chews through tires.

[FKNGRSY]

Favourite build on c5. So much helpful info in here. hopefully your oil cooling issue is solved. When you were talking about running the oem cooler and the larger setrab did you mean running 2 coolers in a series? One coolers outlet feeding the inlet of the next? Or did I misread that. Figured that would be quite a pressure drop. Oil temps seem to be quite the battle with these cars. Thanks

[X25]

Originally Posted by FKNGRSY

Favourite build on c5. So much helpful info in here. hopefully your oil cooling issue is solved. When you were talking about running the oem cooler and the larger setrab did you mean running 2 coolers in a series? One coolers outlet feeding the inlet of the next? Or did I misread that. Figured that would be quite a pressure drop. Oil temps seem to be quite the battle with these cars. Thanks

Thanks, I'm glad you find it useful

I was talking about leaving the OEM water-to-oil cooler intact, and adding my former Series 1, 72 row cooler (essentially in series) with a sandwich adapter. We will not add thermostat to this, so we won't lose pressure/flow from that. My former cooler is actually the one with the least oil pressure drop (<1 PSI) among all the Setrab oil cooler cores available, so it is actually perfect for this job. We already ordered the parts for that project, and I am looking forward to trying it out, too. The real test will be going to the track with both my brother's and my 1LE, and see how temps and pressures fare with these alternative systems.

[X25]

Finally got to try my new oil cooler at Oregon Raceway Park today (yesterday)! Ironically, the ambient temp was 88 degrees F, which is what GM suggested they test their products at for track duty.

I started the track event late (at 11 AM) spent the first session testing out the oil cooler, temps, and tire pressures, and did not care for lap times. This turned out to be a big mistake since it was the only session I had where ambient temps were at or below 80 degrees F. During that session, the flaggers clocked me at 1:56.xx! Unfortunately, I did not take the lap times during that first session. The following (afternoon) sessions had ambient temps climbing within every hour (up to 90 degrees F), and I could not do that time again. Blame it on me (heat exhaustion), engine, or the tires overheating; I'm not sure which.

Here is the 1:57.1 lap I made at 87 degrees F:


I've also met a fellow Camaro Forum member, Tom. He does have a ZL1, and we even played in one of the sessions, driving lead-follow back and forth. I do have a footage of chasing him within safe distance, but I forgot to ask his permission to post, so I'll have to ask first

Temps:

• Oil:
  • Long story short, with the new oil cooler, the oil temp stabilized in 270s! It has never stabilized before (I used to start cool down before seeing 300s).
  • Yes, it would be better if it stabilized around 250s, but if I will see 280 max regardless of how much I push the car even at 90 degrees F, I'm OK with that!
  • I should also note that Tom stated he did not see oil temps above 250 degrees F at the same track. He is usually up-shifting much earlier than redline, though, and it seems to make a huge impact on temps.
• Coolant:
  • This is a bit bizarre. I checked out my logs, and I realized that at every session without exception, at either lap 3 or lap 4, I hit 228 degrees F. After that lap, the coolant backs down, and never gets past ~221 again.
  • What's happening at 228 degrees F? Does it start using reservoir? Does the engine management change the engine map? If you guys log the coolant temps, it would be nice if you check and see if you see such a behavior, too.
  • Anyhow, besides that odd lap, it never gets past 221s, so I think it looks pretty good.

Tires:

• I've read in multiple places, and even heard of it in a car magazine video (where they mention GM recommends 28 PSI cold, 32-34 PSI HOT target for Trofeo Rs on Z/28s), but this did not work for me.
• First off, how can you guys get the tires to only have 4-6 PSI increase? Of all the cars I've driven at the track, except the 2500 lbs Miata, none of them had an increase of <7 PSI.
• No wonder, I quickly hit 35 PSI during the sessions, and it crept up to 37 PSI(!).
• I eventually dropped the pressures to 26 PSI cold (by just bleeding another 2 PSI from whatever pressure I read from tires at the paddock), and it seemed to help.
• When you check out Pirelli's track prep docs for Trofeo R, you'll see that Pirelli recommends only 2 bar operating pressure, which translates to about 29 PSI HOT. This would mean 22-24 PSI cold, which would be dangerously low for a heavy car like ours. GM recommends minimum 26 PSI for our cars with whatever tire, so I did not go below 26 PSI, but I think it's fair to say that 26 PSI should work better per Pirelli's recommendations, too, even though it's not low enough, either.
• This was my second track day with these tires, and they are so far holding up fine (I still see the grooves :P). We'll see how much longer they can last.

[X25]

Aero kit vs. air:

• If I recall correctly, last time when I made the trip to this track (ORP), my average fuel consumption was at ~24 MPG.
• This time around, it's been 22 MPG.
• Besides this obvious drop, I also see that on the downhills at highway speeds, I no longer need to apply brakes. My big parachute a.k.a wicker bill (at max position) and my fender flares seem to be very successful at slowing me down, so all I need to do is to modulate gas pedal.

There you go, it does seem to have significant impact to drag for sure.

[Synner]

My water temps hit 240-250 a couple sessions in a row. That was still on the dinky 245/275 tires but temps were 95ish. I called it an early day after seeing what my water and oil temps were doing. This was prior to all my cooler upgrades.

228 is right around the 100% on fan setting, that's probably what you're noticing.
From a stock 2010 LS3 tune:
192-210 f. = 24% fan speed
214 f. = 26% fan speed
217 f. = 40% fan speed
221 f. = 51% fan speed
225 f. = 65% fan speed
228 f. and above = 91% fan speed

[X25]

Originally Posted by Synner

My water temps hit 240-250 a couple sessions in a row. That was still on the dinky 245/275 tires but temps were 95ish. I called it an early day after seeing what my water and oil temps were doing. This was prior to all my cooler upgrades.

228 is right around the 100% on fan setting, that's probably what you're noticing.
From a stock 2010 LS3 tune:
192-210 f. = 24% fan speed
214 f. = 26% fan speed
217 f. = 40% fan speed
221 f. = 51% fan speed
225 f. = 65% fan speed
228 f. and above = 91% fan speed

Thanks for the info! I thought our fans don't run at speed; I guess I was wrong.

Regarding timing/power v.s. coolant temps. I do have an uncut version of my last session, and you see the climb of temps around lap 3-4, and the subsequent quick drop in temps. Whatever the case, my trap speeds seem to be pretty constant, making me believe that I do not lose power. If not the fan, I'm wondering if my OEM thermostat gets a bit stuck, and opens all the way only when heated up a bit:

[Synner]

Yeah its based on water temp and also if you have a/c on, you just can't hear them kick on when going round the track. Post flexalite install it doesn't really go over 210 on track, it's crazy how you see the temps drop on the long straights when its getting max airflow. Cooler days I even see it drop under 200 at certain points on some of the tracks which surprised me. I'll get to test it out under extreme 100+ degree heat in Texas shortly but I'm thinking it'll max at 220. A very efficient, but pricey, unit.

Oil cooling I will need to reattack after I get my gauges and a few other repairs done this winter. Its a bit in flux, wearing down the wife on getting a different project car so I may get things back to functioning and that's it.

[X25]

Originally Posted by Synner

Yeah its based on water temp and also if you have a/c on, you just can't hear them kick on when going round the track. Post flexalite install it doesn't really go over 210 on track, it's crazy how you see the temps drop on the long straights when its getting max airflow. Cooler days I even see it drop under 200 at certain points on some of the tracks which surprised me. I'll get to test it out under extreme 100+ degree heat in Texas shortly but I'm thinking it'll max at 220. A very efficient, but pricey, unit.

Oil cooling I will need to reattack after I get my gauges and a few other repairs done this winter. Its a bit in flux, wearing down the wife on getting a different project car so I may get things back to functioning and that's it.

We ordered the parts to create the hybrid system on my brother's 1LE, and we should receive the parts this week: We will leave the OEM cooler intact and use my former oil cooler core (Series one 72 rows Setrab) as an addition to the system via a sandwich adapter. If the OEM cooler indeed does 80% of the job, the additional cooling capacity should more than suffice. One drawback is the drop in oil pressure. I always thought that one of the pros of OEM system is low pressure drop, but looking at Mocal's FAQ site, looks like the spiral OEM coolers do also drop the pressure.

[jamestown]

Hey x25,

I'm kind of interested in hearing your thoughts on tracking your miata vs your camaro. I recently drove an s2000 for the first time, but was almost surprised by how similar the experience was, as while the 1le is a huge car it has sharp turn in and handles transitions quite well. If anything the sight lines out of the camaro leave something to be desired, and maybe the cost of consumables. The trade being for all that torque.

Anyway do you find yourself prefering to drive one over the other? Or something else you find unique about the experience of driving the cars?

[X25]

Originally Posted by jamestown

Hey x25,

I'm kind of interested in hearing your thoughts on tracking your miata vs your camaro. I recently drove an s2000 for the first time, but was almost surprised by how similar the experience was, as while the 1le is a huge car it has sharp turn in and handles transitions quite well. If anything the sight lines out of the camaro leave something to be desired, and maybe the cost of consumables. The trade being for all that torque.

Anyway do you find yourself prefering to drive one over the other? Or something else you find unique about the experience of driving the cars?

I think I should split that into track and street use.

Street:
At the street, Miata is the more fun car to drive. It lets me drop the top, which by itself is a huge plus for fun driving. It is also quite small, and you can sneak into the lanes or narrow roads with ease. You also don't need to go fast to have fun, especially with the top down. That said, once you go on the highway, the buzzing 4 cylinder gets old in a hurry, not to mention the very limited view of traffic from the low seats. It also does not have enough trunk space, not to mention the fact that you cannot carry more than 1 passenger. So in short, it's more fun at the street with much less comfort, but not a good choice for highway commute, and not very practical, either. 1LE is most certainly a better all-around car for street use, and it is also more comfortable. It does need speed to be fun in terms of driving with its big size and large tires, though, and it sometimes feels too big for the streets, especially in comparison with the Miata.

Track:
Miata is great at the track once you spend the $$$ to improve its suspension. With its stock suspension, it leans quite a bit, making you uncomfortable. Anyhow, it's small, can turn in very fast (faster than 1LE), and it can be very fun to drive since it is easy to manipulate the tail of the car, not to mention quick, non-laggy responses of the chassis. The low weight helps a lot in every dynamic attribute. Any issues? In long turns, the ultimate traction is less than the big boys, including 1LE. In other words, even though it's quicker to settle in the turn, once settled, 1LE seems to be faster. The power deficiency is also way too much, which becomes a big issue. You end up closing in on high HP cars, even catching them up during the whole lap, only to be blocked by them, and then they never let you go on the straights; it becomes very frustrating. No wonder, I installed a supercharger :P Before the supercharger, I was usually scaring them at the corkscrew turns (as if I'd t-bone them), and then they'd let me go.

1LE was an excellent track car bone stock with ST43 brake pads, brake ducting. It ultimately requires better brakes, and also better cooling, but it does not need anything else. Miata, on the other hand, is not track ready, and needs serious $$$ to get it there. If I were to have only one car, I'd go with the 1LE, no doubt in my mind.

[jamestown]

Thanks for the post!

I know what you mean about the 1le on the street, it is super smooth, and nice on the highway, but not entirely fun as to get near the limits of grip you are going to go to jail eventually.

It's also funny that probably the least enjoyable thing about tracking a miata is that other cars have such high horsepower on average. I guess the only way to avoid that is to just buy a private racetrack... or it MIGHT be easier to join a league. I have yet to try that however.