Detroit Free-press -- a MUST READ

[Bell040]

Wikipedia quote:

"The Big Three are distinguished not just by their size and geography, but also by their business model. The majority of their operations are unionized (United Auto Workers and Canadian Auto Workers), resulting in higher labor costs than other multinational automakers, including those with plants in North America. The 2005 Harbour Report estimated that Toyota's lead in labour productivity amounted to a cost advantage of $350 US to $500 US per vehicle over North American manufacturers. "

"Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, whose father George Romney was chairman of American Motors Corporation, has said that a bailout would only delay the inevitable bankruptcy filing. He suggested, however, that the government provide post-bankruptcy financing and guarantee vehicle warrantees."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automot...crisis_of_2008

Hope the Camaro will be covered!!

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by Bell040

Wikipedia quote:

"The Big Three are distinguished not just by their size and geography, but also by their business model. The majority of their operations are unionized (United Auto Workers and Canadian Auto Workers), resulting in higher labor costs than other multinational automakers, including those with plants in North America. The 2005 Harbour Report estimated that Toyota's lead in labour productivity amounted to a cost advantage of $350 US to $500 US per vehicle over North American manufacturers. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automot...crisis_of_2008

Right, so assuming whoever wrote that article sited an accurate source for that information, this goes back to what fbodfather was saying about how the US plants have far more retirees than the foreign plants. Not much they can do about that without completely screwing over all the retirees.

[Design1stCode2nd]

First I agree that the funds should already be flowing, I don’t care where they come from. I however don’t think for one second that the money would last more than a few months. It’s a stop gap measure for GM to get it’s house in order to be able to file for chapter 11. Look at what GM owes and how much it makes. It’s already bankrupt.

GM has a fundamental problem. They have lost 30% of their NA market share yet have 4x as many brands as they need and 2-3x as many dealers as they need. Now of course the idea is they could close brands and streamline dealers. To do this you need one of two things; A. lots of money or B. Chapter 11 protection. Which one is available for GM? Well we know it’s not A… Well they could sell brands? ORLY? Who wants to buy Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Buick or any of the rest with the obligations they have? Almost Nobody.

I make this prognostication GM will file for Chapter 11 or congress will come up with some equivalent law that allows for chapter 11 like protection while not calling it bankruptcy sometime in 2009, probably before the second quarter closes.

[rmyers]

Good to see Scott mentioned the legacy costs. Thats the part Ron G. and everyone else want to skip when talking about labor related cost. They are quick to say how wages are comparative, but never want to mention legacy cost unless pressed.

Having said that, to say it is borderline evil for the Senators to object to this is IMHO laughable. Those senators were simply representing the conservative voices in this country like mine and last time i checked about 54% of the nation who oppose this. So I'll get in line with the evil ones I guess. because Congress should NOT have bailed failed banks and they should NOT be lending money to failing auto companies. You can say what you'd like about my position, I am at least consistent in my position on bailouts for bank and big 3. I was and still am, opposed to both. Where-as you have some people on this forum and others who opposed the bailout of banks, but are in favor of the bailout of the auto industry. My question, is what industry is next in line?

[StoutFiles]

Wow.

Just 'Wow'

Did you even read the article I posted at the top of this thread?

Who has screwed up more than Congress or the Senate????

This kills me. We are blasting the Senate for what again...not giving the auto industry a loan? The American auto industry messed up big for so many years and now that foreign competition is coming in, they need...nay...EXPECT a loan...which is defined as a loan but in GM's case it's basically a bailout. GM expects the govt. to save them for their mistakes and if they don't get it...well the Senate is EVIL. I hope if anything this whole situation has humbled GM.

Let's be real here. GM will never go Chapter 7 because if they do go Chapter 11 the govt. will then help them. Chapter 11 pleases the Republicans, and the Democrats won't change their stance. Either way GM will get their money...it's just different paths to get there.

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

This kills me. We are blasting the Senate for what again...not giving the auto industry a loan? The American auto industry messed up big for so many years and now that foreign competition is coming in, they need...nay...EXPECT a loan...which is defined as a loan but in GM's case it's basically a bailout. GM expects the govt. to save them for their mistakes and if they don't get it...well the Senate is EVIL. I hope if anything this whole situation has humbled GM.

Let's be real here. GM will never go Chapter 7 because if they do go Chapter 11 the govt. will then help them. Chapter 11 pleases the Republicans, and the Democrats won't change their stance. Either way GM will get their money...it's just different paths to get there.

If the government had done their job right with the FIRST bailout, the big 3 would be getting their loans from the banks as intended. However, since they failed, while throwing cash at the financial institutions, to mention 'oh hey, use this to give people LOANS so we can get the economy going again' those banks spent it as their short-sighted members saw fit. Because in the end the bankers, the Wall-Street gurus, the senators, and yes - a good chunk of America only cares about what will happen next year. It is the root of a great many problems.

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

This kills me. We are blasting the Senate for what again...not giving the auto industry a loan? The American auto industry messed up big for so many years and now that foreign competition is coming in, they need...nay...EXPECT a loan...which is defined as a loan but in GM's case it's basically a bailout. GM expects the govt. to save them for their mistakes and if they don't get it...well the Senate is EVIL. I hope if anything this whole situation has humbled GM.

Let's be real here. GM will never go Chapter 7 because if they do go Chapter 11 the govt. will then help them. Chapter 11 pleases the Republicans, and the Democrats won't change their stance. Either way GM will get their money...it's just different paths to get there.

Save them from their mistakes? What mistakes? Forcing themselves to build cars to a certain fuel efficiency then pursuing policies to keep the price of gas low? Nope, that wasn't GM, that was the government. Turning a blind eye to the foreign governments violating free trade policies, manipulating currency and what not? Nope, that was the government too. Enforcing difficult union and franchise laws? Still not GM, still our beloved government. Subsidizing the operations of foreign brands? NOT GM BUT YES THE VERY SAME GOVERNMENT THAT WOULDN'T GIVE A DIME TO AMERICAN COMPANIES. And yet despite this government intentionally pursuing policies that would hurt American manufacturers and boost foreign brands, they still managed a turn around plan that was going along wonderfully. And then came the credit crisis, and with it the economic crisis, brought about by government economic and financial policies, Democratic and Republican alike, that encouraged risk and unaccountability. That crippled car sales for everyone, not just Detroit. So you're damn straight the American car companies should expect a bailout. They should expect a bailout, an apology, and the resignation of the vast majority of our elected officials. GM deserves it, Ford deserves it, Chrysler deserves it, and most of all the American people deserve it.

[Brokinarrow]

Originally Posted by stovt001

Save them from their mistakes? What mistakes? Forcing themselves to build cars to a certain fuel efficiency then pursuing policies to keep the price of gas low? Nope, that wasn't GM, that was the government. Turning a blind eye to the foreign governments violating free trade policies, manipulating currency and what not? Nope, that was the government too. Enforcing difficult union and franchise laws? Still not GM, still our beloved government. Subsidizing the operations of foreign brands? NOT GM BUT YES THE VERY SAME GOVERNMENT THAT WOULDN'T GIVE A DIME TO AMERICAN COMPANIES. And yet despite this government intentionally pursuing policies that would hurt American manufacturers and boost foreign brands, they still managed a turn around plan that was going along wonderfully. And then came the credit crisis, and with it the economic crisis, brought about by government economic and financial policies, Democratic and Republican alike, that encouraged risk and unaccountability. That crippled car sales for everyone, not just Detroit. So you're damn straight the American car companies should expect a bailout. They should expect a bailout, an apology, and the resignation of the vast majority of our elected officials. GM deserves it, Ford deserves it, Chrysler deserves it, and most of all the American people deserve it.

Wow dude, +1 to that!

[MerF]

Originally Posted by Brokinarrow

If the government had done their job right with the FIRST bailout, the big 3 would be getting their loans from the banks as intended....

This is close to my thoughts. I said it before in one of the many threads (all of them justified) on this shamble. I would not be NEARLY as interested in the government LOANING (I hate the term bailing out in terms of Detroit) the money if not for them shoveling unadulterated cash down the throats of the crooked banks and mortgage companies.

News flash. I'm trying to buy my first house. I'm a 9-year veteran of foreign wars, with a medium-income and average credit. I'm the head of household for a family of four and live well within my means. I spend pretty freely, which is dumb of me because I don't have a savings to speak of, but I quite freely give back to the economy.

AND I CAN'T GET AN EFFING LOAN from the idiots that the government BAILED OUT SCOTT-FREE! I'm barely getting a $150k home mortgage pre-approved, and it's not a done deal yet. My wife and I are desperately trying to find a home that doesn't need major work or isn't in a slum for that price within a normal drive of my work, and it's really hard and I'm just exhausted.

I'm so fed up. I'm a vet, and I'm a registered Republican. I saw the writing on the wall this election and it scared me blue. I'm not changing my card just yet, but this is really making me wonder which side of the fence I'm really on. I think that's all I should say in this (now) non-political forum. I'm pissed and I'm venting.

I'm sorry, I'll shut-up now...but I feel better.

[fastball]

Just read that Bank Of America says GM needs $30 BILLION to survive the next few months, not $14 billion.

Gosh this is getting absurd. Scott, I'm sorry, but I'm at the end and I can't take it any more.

Time to file Chapter 11. Plain and simple. The numbers keep changing, and I heard that Pontiac maintains they will bring the G3 out and possibly axe the G8 ST.

Just kill Pontiac and put it out of it's missery. A rebadged Aveo and no G8ST? Come on. That's a disgrace to the Pontiac name. I'd rather see it eliminated than die an even slower death (which it inevitably will now).

Also, I just read that Bob Lutz has FINALLY come out and said GM has far too many nameplates and not enough attention given to the nameplates that count.

I love Bob.

[GLBL WMR]

Originally Posted by fastball

Just read that Bank Of America says GM needs $30 BILLION to survive the next few months, not $14 billion.

Gosh this is getting absurd. Scott, I'm sorry, but I'm at the end and I can't take it any more.

Time to file Chapter 11. Plain and simple. The numbers keep changing, and I heard that Pontiac maintains they will bring the G3 out and possibly axe the G8 ST.

Just kill Pontiac and put it out of it's missery. A rebadged Aveo and no G8ST? Come on. That's a disgrace to the Pontiac name. I'd rather see it eliminated than die an even slower death (which it inevitably will now).

Also, I just read that Bob Lutz has FINALLY come out and said GM has far too many nameplates and not enough attention given to the nameplates that count.

I love Bob.

+1

It goes to show that they are still not being honest with their situation, and that $15 billion was just the tip of the iceberg. It is so easy to see that I can't understand for the life of me how anybody sees anything but chapter 11 as the only option. I understand that its a very good possibility that it will escalate to chapter 7, but there is no other option that makes ANY sense. I am totally against bailouts, but some kind of government backed chapter 11 would be acceptable to me - just it would keep the entire GM workforce from getting buried.

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

I would like to add to this what is taking so long for the TARP funds to be made available. It seems when the banks needed it the money was made available very quickly but for GM everyone is willing to take their time.

Don't worry. They've said they'll use it should they need to. It will go down just as it did for the financial sector. Extremely hastily and last minute.

Saturday/Sunday, Waggoner gives Paulson a ring. "You Hank, we're filing bankruptcy on Monday. Unless.... you can hook us up with like $10bil or so". Pauslon replies, "Sure thing Rick. Do you have a plan?" "Sure do" says Waggoner. Paulson then says "K, cool beans. Who do I make the check out to?"

This will be a multi-hour conversation but that's basically how it goes. Sunday evening, they tell the press of the plan and everything is cool come Monday.

There's a chance that this happens on another day of the week but most of the financials happened over the weekend before the Asian markets open Sunday evening.

[Nexus6]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

The Senate members who voted Nay are not EVIL...they have their reasons.

They feel that 15 Billion without some sort of financial plan would be throwing away money and delaying the inevitable...Chapter 11. They want those CEO's who screwed up fired...they want the GM workers who are making so much money to make what they should be making...considerably less. It's hard to beat the competition when you have CEO's who made these bad decisions leadign us here and workers draining away more money than the competition.

They want GM recleansed. Management fired, union contracts tore up, and a complete recleansing. It's a Republican thing. I don't know which is the right answer, but they aren't evil...right now 50% of the country says Nay. All we ca hope for is that it all works out in the end.

I think you and those other senators need to be hung on the white house lawn as TRAITORS

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by fastball

Just read that Bank Of America says GM needs $30 BILLION to survive the next few months, not $14 billion.

You didn't read that. And if you did, the article you read was wrong. BofA said they would need $30bil to operate through bankruptcy; not to keep going without bankruptcy. There's a big difference.
reuters