100% stock retuned for e85

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

LOL, and niether is running E85 in a car that can't sense the percentage.

The car that I run VP N02 fuel doesn't get driven on the street.

Have a good day!

Robin

You do know most "modern" flex fuel vehicles dont use a fuel sensor, they basicaly use the o2 sensor to determine fuel comp.

The camaro will use the o2 sensor to keep the afr's in line using fuel trims ( not enough to just be able to use e85 without a tune ) but enough to compensate for varying percentages of ethanol in e85 once tuned.

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

John/Speedy,

What was the horsepower when you tuned the car with 93?

I am at 82% with my injectors now. Stock I was at 72% .

The current fuel injectors and pumps in the Camaro are not capable of having a margin of safety to run the extra volume required for E85.

Gasoline makes more power than the E85 in an NA application. It's when you introduce other factors such as cooling will the you see benifits from the E85. And that is at an additional cost.


BTW, nice runs at Cordova!!



Robin

I never tuned the car on 93, i dyno'd and logged it, and didnt see that much could be gained over stock ( stock afr was mid 12's and at stock timing it was already at borderline knock )

Stock my duty cycle was 67% at peak HP , on e85 it is around 86%, stock injectors are plenty on e85 on a stock camaro

E85 will always make more HP than 93 octane, not by a lot in NA applications

Consider both gasoline and e85 btu released when 1 lb of air and the max power lean of both fuels are burned, gasoline will produce about 8600 btu per lb of air and e85 will produce about 9600 btu per lb of air. In the real world on the dyno i see gains that average about 5% power gain on NA applications, turbo applications gain a LOT more , I have seen almost 100% more power made on e85 as compared to 93 octane on small displacement high boost setups.

THanks, to bad I didnt have more time at the track that night, I think a 12.7x might have been possible, air was decent and track prep was good.

Later
John Cozad

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

I respectfully disagree. With the proper race fuel and the slower burn rate the gasoline is much more consistant in it's formulation.
THe E85 percentages are all over the place. Your tune with the E85 can be off just by switching vendors or the day of the week that you buy it.

Yes I pay 14+ per gallon for my race fuel but when I get a new batch it is consistant.

Robin

I test e85 reguarly from a number of stations and durring summer i see from 75-85% in all my tests, that variation has minimal impact on the tune, maybe .1 afr . even at 65% ( have yet to see any e85 with that low % ) the impact would be minimal for an NA application like the camaro.

[Robin Lawrence]

Originally Posted by speedy6963

E85 will always make more HP than 93 octane, not by a lot in NA applications

Well yes it will verses 93. But look at my post. I said gasoline, and I didn't say cost was a factor

And the question about the tune was a trick, my tune was also very close. I am suprised at all the shops that have been able to pick up 20 to 30 on a tune

If you use the 02's your going to need to change your stoich A/F. THe MAF and the VE are tied to the numbers from your commanded A/F.
Since you don't have the sensors in the tank it will need to be tricked in the tune.

Still any mods and your are out of injector....you are going to mod it aren't you John?

I figured you for a turbo or 2.

Robin

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

Well yes it will verses 93. But look at my post. I said gasoline, and I didn't say cost was a factor

And the question about the tune was a trick, my tune was also very close. I am suprised at all the shops that have been able to pick up 20 to 30 on a tune

I honestly dont believe the camaro has any real HP to gain from tune alone and any shop claiming 20-30whp gains from a "TUNE" on a stock car is being dishonest. ( like doing a before dyno when car is HOT and doing after dyno when car is COOL ) , that will show large gains. I tried to keep my engine temp in the low 190's for all pulls ( 192 thermostat )

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

If you use the 02's your going to need to change your stoich A/F. THe MAF and the VE are tied to the numbers from your commanded A/F.
Since you don't have the sensors in the tank it will need to be tricked in the tune.

changing stoich AFR is exactly where i started, then desinsitized the knock sensors slightly ( was getting some false knock ) then optimized timing and PE and a few other things

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

Still any mods and your are out of injector....you are going to mod it aren't you John?

I figured you for a turbo or 2.

Robin

I might be abe to get away with ram air setup and long tubes and that would be about it for mods on the stock injectors...

I am waiting a while before i go that far with it... ( turbo )

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by toehead93

At first glance 20-25rwhp increase with E85 seems great, but it was tuned. A good custum tune on 93-octane will get you 20-25rwhp also. So to me there is no hp increase in the gas, it is in the tune, right?

any shop claiming 20-25whp with a tune alone on a STOCK LS3 camaro is not being honest, at best tune on a stock LS3 camaro MIGHT give 5-10whp at peak ( pulling the air filter and cooling the car will give more )

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

Still any mods and your are out of injector....you are going to mod it aren't you John?

I figured you for a turbo or 2.

Robin

A question, what are the fuel pump options for the camaro if someone needed enough fuel for over 600whp ? ( fuel pump options that wouldnt piss off the ecu )

[Robin Lawrence]

Originally Posted by speedy6963

A question, what are the fuel pump options for the camaro if someone needed enough fuel for over 600whp ? ( fuel pump options that wouldnt piss off the ecu )

Right now I don't know. The guys at Lingenfelter are working on a controller that would drive an aftermarket pump and not piss off the ECU.

I am looking at building a complete return style system and turning off the monitors for the controller.

There may be other systems that have been developed but I have not heard. You can get away with a few pulls for a "hail mary" number but once a customer gets the car and runs out of pump it won't be pretty.

The ZR1 pump and controller is very expensive. I will let you know if I hear of anything.


Robin

[FNKNSTN]

I didn't know that the Camaro's engine was rated for Ethanol.

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

I didn't know that the Camaro's engine was rated for Ethanol.

Technically it isnt.

[Robin Lawrence]

Originally Posted by FNKNSTN

I didn't know that the Camaro's engine was rated for Ethanol.

It's not

John understands that if anything is adversly effected by using E85 that it's not going to be covered under warranty.

The owners manual states that E85 is not an approved fuel.

Robin

[speedy6963]

Just to state this so everyone is clear, DO NOT PUT E85 in your new camaro, it will void your warranty, and will not run properly without a tune specificaly for the fuel.

[E85LSX]

speedy,

I just started running my camaro on e85 as well. I have not had a chance to dyno tune it yet but I have it set up much richer than yours at wot. Are you running 13.25:1 at wot or is the graph you posted not accurate. I have mine running at 11.2:1 (with 14.6:1 being stoich) this is my first time tuning for e85 so I'm not sure where my a/f ratio should be right now

[speedy6963]

Originally Posted by E85LSX

speedy,

I just started running my camaro on e85 as well. I have not had a chance to dyno tune it yet but I have it set up much richer than yours at wot. Are you running 13.25:1 at wot or is the graph you posted not accurate. I have mine running at 11.2:1 (with 14.6:1 being stoich) this is my first time tuning for e85 so I'm not sure where my a/f ratio should be right now

Yes my afr's as read on the dynos gasoline calibrated wideband were in the 13's

REMEMBER EVERYONE, DOING THIS WILL VOID WARRANTY

To start load in the stock tune, set stoich to about 10-1, drive at least 20 miles at varying loads while logging. Then look at fuel trims if they are trending to the negative side then raise the stoich higher, if they are trending to the positive side then lower stoich. DO THIS FIRST till you get the trims at med loads near ZERO to slightly negative ( on my first tank i ended up with stoich about 10.6, now on the 2nd tank its 10.1 , almost pure e85 now , fuel trims will not totaly settle down till you are on your 2nd tank of e85, due to the residual gas left in the tank )

Once you have that done you then play with PE EQ to get AFR you want at WOT ( e85 is best in the 13.3 - 12.7 range as read on a gasoline calibrated wideband ) and have fun with all modifiers they will make you crazy