What's this world coming too now a days?

[Roflmao]

Originally Posted by Mythic

Not to start a religious debate. But, which/who's God?
you want Catholic practises, Baptist, Hindu, Islam, what?

Religion does not = morality.

Sitting down with your children letting them know that they are loved and appreciated and what the difference between right and wrong is, builds good morals. Involvement in their lives and listening is what kids need most.

I'm not saying Religion doesn't have a place. But, I take exception to saying it is the panacea for all the woes of the world. What people need is more acceptance and understanding and tolerance for their fellows. All too often I have seen Tolerance and Acceptance preached but then qualified to be "only if you believe and worship as I do". More people have been killed in the name of religion than any war ever fought.

[FloridaAnimator]

Hey all. Just joined the forum and came across this 'debate'. I tend to agree w/Eisenhower. Kids today are morally void and have no standards and no 'heros' to look up to...

When I was young my father didn't hesitate to take off his belt and let me have it. Not that I'm advocating using belts and/or switches for disipline, but I am saying that I grew up to appreciate guidelines and boundaries. In my career as a filmmaker, I feel strongly about not using nudity and profanity as a way to make a point or movie. I see no point in it.

Just as I see no point in kicking God out of our schools. Our kids need a Rock to fall back on in this day and age and He's the only one stable enough to hold them.

That's just my two cents. Hey, way to join a forum!!!

[Eisenhower]

For those of us that don't know anything about prayer in U.S. schools, click here.

We've removed God from public schools and when tragedies happen we say, "where was God? Why would He let this happen?" Now think, what's the worst thing that kids got in trouble for back in the 50's-60's? Getting out of their seat without permission, talking without raising their hand, gum chewing, trash under their seat... Today we have teen pregnancy rates that are through the roof, heavy drug use, teen's dropping out left and right, gang violence, mass murder, rape, suicides on the rise, sexual harassment... the list goes on.

Here's how one politician wants to handle things... http://usatoday.feedroom.com/index.j...FEEDROOM161369 We're basically trading the paddle in for the jail cell or worse, the grave. Schools preach evolution and convince our children that they come from monkeys who crawled out of a slime-pit. My ancestors were never monkeys, but maybe it's that these school officials know their kin better than I do. Schools pass out condoms and say, "just be safe". With all the crap in movies and on TV, aren't our children over-sexed as it is? It's simply become a useless institution.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/AsSeenOnGMA/story?id=4585388

To be honest with you, the public education system's days are numbered. It's only a matter of time before they shut down public schools permanently over budget cuts. Schools in my opinion are out-dated anyway, they're still handing out useless diplomas. Shouldn't schools teach skills that would enable them to hand out associates degrees at least? I mean, if you're going to have to go to high school for four years, you should be given a bachelors degree, if not, then an associates degree at the very least- in this day and age.

[The_Blur]

We need to remember what made us who we are today. Some of our parents did things that we genuinely hated as children but made us reasonable adults and kept us on track. Not all good parents have to spank or belt their kids, but we have to remember that it isn't abuse to punish children for bad behavior because without that punishment they have no motivation to avoid doing what we tell them not to do. Words are not enough. Time out is not enough. Children need to realize that there are terrible consequences for actions. For a child terrible is a spanking. For an adult, terrible could be a date in the prison shower with Big Bubba. We should do what it takes to keep our children away from Bubba and on track to being good, reasonable people in society.

These children are not necessarily devoid of spirituality as some of you have suggested. While I tend to get disturbed by religious arguments about morality, it is important for all of us to recognize that religion may instill positive morals in our youth; however, 9-year-olds do not comprehend religion as we do and are therefore less "religious" than we would like to believe. They don't know the cosmic consequences of their actions according to their parents' beliefs. They only know that there is good and bad and rewards and punishments. Morality is best taught to children through rewards and punishments because that is what they understand. Most children are naturally eager-to-please and friendly, but there are instances, like this, of wild children. The usual culprit is uninvolved parents who let their children do as they would without guidance. When I was a kid all the way through high school graduation, I studied taekwondo under Charlie Foxman of Midwest Martial Arts Academy (Creve Cour, MO), an exemplary role model. To a great extent, he guided the way I live my life. My parents introduced that role model to my life. Nowadays, there are less children being enrolled in these types of programs. Soccer and baseball are activities but not replacements for good guidance.

[Roflmao]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

We need to remember what made us who we are today. Some of our parents did things that we genuinely hated as children but made us reasonable adults and kept us on track. Not all good parents have to spank or belt their kids, but we have to remember that it isn't abuse to punish children for bad behavior because without that punishment they have no motivation to avoid doing what we tell them not to do. Words are not enough. Time out is not enough. Children need to realize that there are terrible consequences for actions. For a child terrible is a spanking. For an adult, terrible could be a date in the prison shower with Big Bubba. We should do what it takes to keep our children away from Bubba and on track to being good, reasonable people in society.

These children are not necessarily devoid of spirituality as some of you have suggested. While I tend to get disturbed by religious arguments about morality, it is important for all of us to recognize that religion may instill positive morals in our youth; however, 9-year-olds do not comprehend religion as we do and are therefore less "religious" than we would like to believe. They don't know the cosmic consequences of their actions according to their parents' beliefs. They only know that there is good and bad and rewards and punishments. Morality is best taught to children through rewards and punishments because that is what they understand. Most children are naturally eager-to-please and friendly, but there are instances, like this, of wild children. The usual culprit is uninvolved parents who let their children do as they would without guidance. When I was a kid all the way through high school graduation, I studied taekwondo under Charlie Foxman of Midwest Martial Arts Academy (Creve Cour, MO), an exemplary role model. To a great extent, he guided the way I live my life. My parents introduced that role model to my life. Nowadays, there are less children being enrolled in these types of programs. Soccer and baseball are activities but not replacements for good guidance.

Completely agree. Heck there are a lot of teenagers that don't even comprehend religion. The reason for all the issues of "today" are not because of schools, but are of society and parenting. Its sad that parents just don't seem to care as much. Now the good majority of parents out there are great as it sounds like from everyone who posts here. The problem lies in the few who aren't good, and those few have been increasing in number. Honestly I don't have an idea as to how to solve this either. How do you get the parents to parent without infringing on their rights? The best idea is the role model thing, but even that isn't close to being a guarantee. I remember in school it was almost to the point of relying on fellow children to be the role models... and that was hard to come by.

On the topic of shutting down schools all together, I think it will be a major reform in the system that keeps things going, that or privatization.

[Mythic]

Originally Posted by Eisenhower

For those of us that don't know anything about prayer in U.S. schools, click here.

We've removed God from public schools and when tragedies happen we say, "where was God? Why would He let this happen?" Now think, what's the worst thing that kids got in trouble for back in the 50's-60's? Getting out of their seat without permission, talking without raising their hand, gum chewing, trash under their seat... Today we have teen pregnancy rates that are through the roof, heavy drug use, teen's dropping out left and right, gang violence, mass murder, rape, suicides on the rise, sexual harassment... the list goes on.

Here's how one politician wants to handle things... http://usatoday.feedroom.com/index.j...FEEDROOM161369 We're basically trading the paddle in for the jail cell or worse, the grave. Schools preach evolution and convince our children that they come from monkeys who crawled out of a slime-pit. My ancestors were never monkeys, but maybe it's that these school officials know their kin better than I do. Schools pass out condoms and say, "just be safe". With all the crap in movies and on TV, aren't our children over-sexed as it is? It's simply become a useless institution.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/AsSeenOnGMA/story?id=4585388

To be honest with you, the public education system's days are numbered. It's only a matter of time before they shut down public schools permanently over budget cuts. Schools in my opinion are out-dated anyway, they're still handing out useless diplomas. Shouldn't schools teach skills that would enable them to hand out associates degrees at least? I mean, if you're going to have to go to high school for four years, you should be given a bachelors degree, if not, then an associates degree at the very least- in this day and age.

Did you actually read that article?
I freely admit she was an extremist and maybe even a bit of a wacko. But she didn't adjuticate the trial. The Supreme court did and based on the evidence they voted 8-1.

Her suit was filed for required Bible readings. Hers was not the only one
Abington Township School District v. Schempp (consolidated with Murray v. Curlett), 374 U.S. 203 (1963) The issue wasn't just prayer in school it was "Sponsored" prayer in school.

In this litigation, she stated that her son's refusal to partake in the Bible readings had resulted in violence being directed against him by classmates, and that administrators overlooked it.[6] After consolidation with Abington School District v. Schempp, the lawsuit reached the United States Supreme Court in 1963. The Court voted 8-1 in Murray's favor, which effectively banned Bible-reading at public schools in the United States.

You read the New Testament as a good Christian, Can I read the Talmud as a good Jew? or the Qu'ran and a Good Muslim? Or will I get beaten for that?

Also from the case page for Abington Township School District v. Schempp:
When it was brought, this case illustrated for Americans the metamorphosis their society was undergoing. Although many must have disagreed with local school districts conducting organized prayers and Bible readings, only a small minority vocally expressed objection to the statutes mandating those activities. Most U.S. citizens believed that the United States was a nation founded on Christian principles. Yet, in spite of their widely held beliefs, as early as 1890, many states were rolling back mandates of state sponsored devotional exercises in the classroom (Boston, 1993, p. 105).

Like four other states, Pennsylvania law included a statute compelling school districts to perform Bible readings in the mornings before class. Twenty-five states had laws allowing "optional" Bible reading, with the remainder having no laws supporting or rejecting Bible reading. In eleven of those states with laws supportive of Bible reading or state-sponsored prayer, courts had declared them unconstitutional (Boston, 1993, p. 101).

I, personally, have no problem with prayer in School. To paraphase an old adage: "So long as there are tests, Children will pray". I, however, don't want to be told when and what to pray.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892. It did not originaly contain the passage under God. That was added in 1954 by a campaign orchastrated by he Knights of Columbus.

The orginal Pledge is very different from what most of us know today.
Official versions
1892
“I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”
1892 to 1923
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
1923 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

Things aren't as bad as today as we believe and things yesterday weren't so good. We aren't weekly stringing people up from trees because we don't want them in our town or to have the right to own property or vote are we?

Today we can wistfully look back at the 50s and say, Ahh what a wonderful time it was. The air was clear and the children obediant. Even in the 50s they did't believe that.
http://books.google.com/books?id=PSb...hl=en#PPA66,M1
However, even then when they were "reporting" that the teens of the day were wild and out of control, they weren't really much different than the teens of prior generations.

As far as this beilef that Teen pregnancy is "New" and rising:

The medieval age of consent was seven, but a marriage could be nullified if the couple were married if the girl was under twelve or the boy under fourteen.

The marriage process began with a betrothal that was so formal, and so similar in wording to a wedding ceremony, that the Church had a difficult time preventing couples from beginning marital relations when they were in fact merely engaged (Gies and Gies, City 70).
Additional reading http://books.google.com/books?id=SK0...hl=en#PPA65,M1

And as of 2002 figures, US Teen pregnancy was at a 15year low.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf
also: http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyand...f5496a&k=76351
and http://www.coolnurse.com/teen_pregnancy_rates.htm

[Eisenhower]

I freely admit she was an extremist and maybe even a bit of a wacko. But she didn't adjuticate the trial.
I never claimed that she "adjudicated" anything nor did I imply that it was her sole decision, but she definitely got the ball rollin'.

In this litigation, she stated that her son's refusal to partake in the Bible readings had resulted in violence being directed against him by classmates, and that administrators overlooked it.
She would, wouldn't she. I can almost picture little Billy cornering her kid... "Yur gonna read the Old Testament or we're gonna rip yur skin off!!!"

You read the New Testament as a good Christian, Can I read the Talmud as a good Jew? or the Qu'ran and a Good Muslim? Or will I get beaten for that? Yeah, you'll get a good beatin', just ask anyone.

I, personally, have no problem with prayer in School. To paraphase an old adage: "So long as there are tests, Children will pray". I, however, don't want to be told when and what to pray.
Me either. I totally agree. Not the point.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in...
ah, let's not get into that...

We aren't weekly stringing people up from trees because we don't want them in our town or to have the right to own property or vote are we? Well that depends on what part of town you're in, last I heard racism hasn't disappeared.

Today we can wistfully look back at the 50s and say, Ahh what a wonderful time it was. The air was clear and the children obediant. I can even hear little bluebirds whistling! Even in the 50s they did't believe that. However, even then when they were "reporting" that the teens of the day were wild and out of control, they weren't really much different than the teens of prior generations. huh, prior generations? Killing the principal, your teacher and all your classmates kinda changes things a little, don't cha think?

As far as this beilef that Teen pregnancy is "New" and rising:
never said it was "New", man... come on.

The medieval age of consent was seven, but a marriage... please stop

[GSX]

Sadly now this topic has been

[FloridaAnimator]

You read the New Testament as a good Christian, Can I read the Talmud as a good Jew? or the Qu'ran and a Good Muslim? Or will I get beaten for that? Yeah, you'll get a good beatin', just ask anyone.
I'd just like to point out that in a Christian society, you're free to read whatever you'd like. It's called tolerance. HOWEVER, go to Isreal or any Muslim country, pull out the Christian bible and begin to read. You wanna talk about a beatin? Isreal wil ban you from their country (which is funny 'cuz they're the chosen people ) and we all know what happens when you proclaim anything but Allah in a Muslim country. You will not only get a beatin the likes of which you will never forget, you'll probably get taken out to the street and stoned. Tolerance? Yeah, right...


We aren't weekly stringing people up from trees because we don't want them in our town or to have the right to own property or vote are we? Well that depends on what part of town you're in, last I heard racism hasn't disappeared.
I'm assuming you're not a person of any color. I really don't know why you said this. Racism is a well-known fact in our country and continues to plague people of every color. :(

Today we can wistfully look back at the 50s and say, Ahh what a wonderful time it was. The air was clear and the children obediant. I can even hear little bluebirds whistling! Even in the 50s they did't believe that. However, even then when they were "reporting" that the teens of the day were wild and out of control, they weren't really much different than the teens of prior generations. huh, prior generations? Killing the principal, your teacher and all your classmates kinda changes things a little, don't cha think?

I'm sure the good folks of the 50's and 60's got pretty annoyed when Sally Jane and Billy Parker came home late from the sock hop and snuck a smooch on the front porch. OH those WILD and CRAZY kids! I've never!!! Come on, dude. Are you even listening to yourself? Comparing 40 and 50 years ago to today is way off the mark. Teen pregnancy, abortion, Columbine, STD's, the dropout rate, to name a few have skyrocketed within the last 10 to 20 years. Why? We've removed all morals and morality from our schools. And don't smack the parents with all the blame. As a society we sufficate our youth with every way imaginable to turn our backs on our Creator and 'do it yourself'. There are a good many parents out there doing their best only to have to 'retrain' their children every day after school because they've been fed evolution and anti-God messages for 6 to 8 hours. As a parent myself, I battle the school system daily.

'Nuf said....

[Mythic]

But that IS the point, the schools were telling the children when what and how much scripture to read or to pray.

No she didn't get the ball rolling. The case as it was tried by the Supreme court was Abington Township School District v. Schempp
however the precedent for both cases as individual and thus the cosolidated case heard by the high court was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale
The case was brought by the parents of public school students in New Hyde Park, New York who complained the prayer to "Almighty God" contradicted their religious beliefs.

So kids have never singled another out for looking, sounding or behaving differently prior to just a few short years ago?

No actually you said teen pregnancy was through the roof and clearly it isn't. Per capita it is down and significantly.
Dropout Rates are down too
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html
Average in 1960 27.2%(total) 27.8%(male) 26.7%(female)
2005 9.4(T) 10.8(M) 8.0(F)

Oh please there was no Sexual harrasment in the 50-60s?

Alarmist statements about the younger generation can be found in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and certainly in the 1960s. For example, the cover of a 1954 issue of Newsweek blared: "Let's Face It: Our Teenagers Are Out of Control." The article laments a "national teenage problem-a problem that is apparently getting worse." And why? "There's too much divorce, too few normal homes," claimed one sociologist. Others denounced "salacious, sadistic comic books."

You honestly believe that school violence; including killing classmates, teachers etc is a new development?

We live in a new culture of If it Bleeds it Leads. Consider that while the homicide rate in the United States dropped 20 percent between 1992 and 1996, the number of homicides reported on network news increased by 721 percent.

The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959) - Washington, D.C.
Date: Nov 26, 1954
Start Page: 23
Pages: 1
Section: SPORTS SPORTS
Text Word Count: 208

CHICAGO, Nov. 25 (AP). -- Police said a 16-year-old youth today related setting a fire in a private girls' school which resulted indirectly in the death of three firemen.
- -
University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966 - Charles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was a student at the University of Texas at Austin who shot and killed 14 people.
- -
On Monday, January 29, 1979, Brenda Ann Spencer wounded eight children and one police officer and killed principal Burton Wragg and custodian Mike Suchar in a shooting spree at Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, California, United States.

The school was across the street from her house. She used the rifle she had recently been given for Christmas by her father. When the six-hour incident ended and the sixteen-year-old was asked why she had committed the crime, she shrugged and replied, "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day."

[FloridaAnimator]

You can pull articles related to school violence going back for years and years and years. I've not read in any of the previous posts someone stating that there is no violence in schools and never has been. The point you are missing is that the incidents are INCREASING, and have been for the passed few years. You can find any number of stories out there related to a sporadic incident that happened 40 to 50 to 60 years ago. Today, it's become a weekly to monthly occurance.

And the point is, simply as I can state it, without a Higher power to be accountable to, there is no feeling of consequence. We've taken away the reason to try to be better than yesterday because we keep allowing depravity and lawlessness seep in like a flesh-eating virus. We are destroying ourselves from the inside in the name of 'freedom to choose'.

[Eisenhower]

Originally Posted by FloridaAnimator

You can pull articles related to school violence going back for years and years and years. I've not read in any of the previous posts someone stating that there is no violence in schools and never has been. The point you are missing is that the incidents are INCREASING, and have been for the passed few years. You can find any number of stories out there related to a sporadic incident that happened 40 to 50 to 60 years ago. Today, it's become a weekly to monthly occurance.

And the point is, simply as I can state it, without a Higher power to be accountable to, there is no feeling of consequence. We've taken away the reason to try to be better than yesterday because we keep allowing depravity and lawlessness seep in like a flesh-eating virus. We are destroying ourselves from the inside in the name of 'freedom to choose'.

Absolutely.

...and welcome to the forum!

[FloridaAnimator]

'Preciate the props, Eisenhower 'cept I'm not sure the smokin baby helps our cause....

[Eisenhower]

haha! yeah, i thought it looked funny... but I don't let my kids smoke