Shouldn't we be comparing this to the new Mustangs?

[Matster]

I am not really all that concerned about what Ford does as even the GT500 will have its work cut out for it once I have completed the mods on my SS. From what I've read there are a lot of SS owners who plan on doing the same. Every Stang owner will have to wonder when they see an SS whether it is a stock LS3 or a 500hp+ fire breathing dragon.

[SilverTurtle]

I'll bite, lets do compare this car to the 2010 Mustang.

what we know about the Mustang:
refreshed (according to Ford, not to me) styling
.......
anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

ok, lets speculate on the 2010 Mustang:
5.0L V8, 3valve/cyl heads, DOHC, 380hp (I'm giving them 380hp, because if you do the math with the current, 315hp 4.6L V8 that's in the Bullit is a 3v head and add some upgraded performance, that's as close as I can get to what the speculated engine will be... in 2011! it was confirmed to me a long time ago that we wont see any new engines for the Mustang until the 2011 model year... but I'm going to give them 380hp for now)
have to add 2 more airbags to the line up (if not 4), so weight will be up by about 200-400lbs (since they also have to meet crash safety standards that the S197 wont meet)
six speed transmissions (I pray that they FINALLY do away with that POS 5speed that has burdened the car for so long)


now lets compare the 2010 Camaro to the 2010 Mustang:
Camaro vs Mustang
400+hp.....380+hp*
3900lb......3800lb
retro........retro
interior.....interior
6spd.......6spd
IRS........live axle
AFM......N/A
$31k.....$29k**

*est. based on past engine design and performance
**est. based on previous difference in price vs. competition


so, so far the Camaro has a performance and handling upperhand on the manual equipped cars, a mpg upperhand on the auto equipped cars to go with that, and the Mustang has a price advantage... factor in a dealership that is motivated to sell ANY car in this market, and the price advantage goes away.

winner: CAMARO.

thank you for reading this post... next time, we'll compare the Camaro to the new Challenger.

[Dom]

I could care less what the Mustang does. I also don't see them all of a sudden increasing the power from 300hp to 380hp. There is absolutely no reason for secrecy. Both GM and Chrysler already showed their hand and Ford is still quiet about the engine. I'd understand if all 3 were in the process of releasing something and didn't want the other to bump up the power, but it's too late for that. That tells me that Ford is still undecided or has a big turd under the hood. They are in big financial trouble. I highly doubt they have any money for R&D of a completely new powertrain. Maybe that's why they're quiet, because there will be nothing new and this way they can keep the hype as long as possible. They always had turd engines and I'm sure every year their fans though there would be a bigger engine coming out. What if this is like what happened when they went from 5.0 DOWN to 4.6? They're just as likely to go down as up in power. And now I'm reading that Ford is possibly going to 6.2? hahaha Yeah keep dreaming Mustang fan boys. Ford never put a big displacement engine in that car, why would they start now? 5.0 is as big as they will put in there. I wouldn't be shocked by turbo EcoBoost V-6 as their top engine.

Why are we so worried about Ford? They manage 210hp out of a 4.0L V6 while we get 300hp out of a 3.5L. Their V8 has 300hp while our V8 has 433hp.

My guess

V6 - same 4.0 210hp, it's their fleet car they don't care about power
V8 - bullitt 4.6 315-325hp, I would be surprised with anything over 350hp while maintaining their desired mpg target

[TheClassicCarKid]

Originally Posted by Dom

I could care less what the Mustang does. I also don't see them all of a sudden increasing the power from 300hp to 380hp. There is absolutely no reason for secrecy. Both GM and Chrysler already showed their hand and Ford is still quiet about the engine. I'd understand if all 3 were in the process of releasing something and didn't want the other to bump up the power, but it's too late for that. That tells me that Ford is still undecided or has a big turd under the hood. They are in big financial trouble. I highly doubt they have any money for R&D of a completely new powertrain. Maybe that's why they're quiet, because there will be nothing new and this way they can keep the hype as long as possible. They always had turd engines and I'm sure every year their fans though there would be a bigger engine coming out. What if this is like what happened when they went from 5.0 DOWN to 4.6? They're just as likely to go down as up in power. And now I'm reading that Ford is possibly going to 6.2? hahaha Yeah keep dreaming Mustang fan boys. Ford never put a big displacement engine in that car, why would they start now? 5.0 is as big as they will put in there. I wouldn't be shocked by turbo EcoBoost V-6 as their top engine.

Why are we so worried about Ford? They manage 210hp out of a 4.0L V6 while we get 300hp out of a 3.5L. Their V8 has 300hp while our V8 has 433hp.

My guess

V6 - same 4.0 210hp, it's their fleet car they don't care about power
V8 - bullitt 4.6 315-325hp, I would be surprised with anything over 350hp while maintaining their desired mpg target

In all fairness they had the GT with the 390...of course that was about 40 years ago : )

I agree with everything you said man, they're not going to have an 80 horse jump. I think no more than 340 for the new GT's. If they'll do anything with serious performance in mind they'll bring out the 5.0 in 2011.

[StoutFiles]

V6 - same 4.0 210hp, it's their fleet car they don't care about power

That would be committing suicide. "Oh, we're #1 in sales right now, let's never try to improve the HP of our car." There will be a jump in HP...it may not catch the Camaro, but there will be a jump.

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

That would be committing suicide. "Oh, we're #1 in sales right now, let's never try to improve the HP of our car." There will be a jump in HP...it may not catch the Camaro, but there will be a jump.

215 hp.....

[Dom]

Originally Posted by headpunter

215 hp.....

I'd go 214 max.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by TheClassicCarKid

In all fairness they had the GT with the 390...of course that was about 40 years ago : )

I agree with everything you said man, they're not going to have an 80 horse jump. I think no more than 340 for the new GT's. If they'll do anything with serious performance in mind they'll bring out the 5.0 in 2011.

conveniently, if you do the math with the current 315hp Bullit engine you get 349hp from a 5.0L V8... but these people that are talking about a 400hp 5.0L V8 are on crack... that engine, to get that kind of horsepower, would be in Ferrari territory... and Ferrari is exempt from emissions because of how few cars they build per year... so making that engine meet emissions would be a nightmare!

I only gave them 380hp in my scenario to give the Mustang lovers as much credit as I could... I firmly believe that we will NOT see a 380+hp engine from Ford for at least 2 more years that isn't a supercharged V8... but to get the playing field level, sometimes you have to twist logic around.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Dom

I could care less what the Mustang does.

They always had turd engines and I'm sure every year their fans though there would be a bigger engine coming out.

And now I'm reading that Ford is possibly going to 6.2? hahaha Yeah keep dreaming Mustang fan boys. Ford never put a big displacement engine in that car, why would they start now? 5.0 is as big as they will put in there.

Why are we so worried about Ford? They manage 210hp out of a 4.0L V6 while we get 300hp out of a 3.5L. Their V8 has 300hp while our V8 has 433hp.

First off, I will clear up two things for you:

1. How can you say that 5.0 is the biggest engine they will put under the hood, when the current Shelby GT500 is a 5.4 liter?

2. There's a saying that horsepower sells cars but torque wins races. So while the Camaro V6 has the same 300hp as the current Mustang V8, you already know from the preliminary acceleration numbers that the V6 Camaro is NOT going to beat the V8 Mustang in a race. (Note: I think you're also a little optimistic in your 433 hp figure - the figure is 422 I believe for the LS3, but I could be wrong).

But you're right about one thing - there is no need to worry about what the Mustang does. They're going to likely keep with the formula they have because it's been successful for over 40 years now, and unless history totally reverses itself, the Mustang will be continue to be a solid product in their lineup.

I have no loyalty either way - I will buy the car that I like better. I have owned 3 Z28s and 3 Mustang GTs and liked them all. I for one am really glad the Camaro is back, because now I have a choice, while back in 2005 I didn't.

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by wjones14

First off, I will clear up two things for you:

1. How can you say that 5.0 is the biggest engine they will put under the hood, when the current Shelby GT500 is a 5.4 liter?

2. There's a saying that horsepower sells cars but torque wins races. So while the Camaro V6 has the same 300hp as the current Mustang V8, you already know from the preliminary acceleration numbers that the V6 Camaro is NOT going to beat the V8 Mustang in a race. (Note: I think you're also a little optimistic in your 433 hp figure - the figure is 422 I believe for the LS3, but I could be wrong).
But you're right about one thing - there is no need to worry about what the Mustang does. They're going to likely keep with the formula they have because it's been successful for over 40 years now, and unless history totally reverses itself, the Mustang will be continue to be a solid product in their lineup.

I have no loyalty either way - I will buy the car that I like better. I have owned 3 Z28s and 3 Mustang GTs and liked them all. I for one am really glad the Camaro is back, because now I have a choice, while back in 2005 I didn't.

here is the dynochart in the gimped SAE test format for the ls3 in the corvette from GMpowertrain.com

[nester7929]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

conveniently, if you do the math with the current 315hp Bullit engine you get 349hp from a 5.0L V8... but these people that are talking about a 400hp 5.0L V8 are on crack... that engine, to get that kind of horsepower, would be in Ferrari territory... and Ferrari is exempt from emissions because of how few cars they build per year... so making that engine meet emissions would be a nightmare!

I only gave them 380hp in my scenario to give the Mustang lovers as much credit as I could... I firmly believe that we will NOT see a 380+hp engine from Ford for at least 2 more years that isn't a supercharged V8... but to get the playing field level, sometimes you have to twist logic around.

Ford has had 5.0 performance engines that produce 400 hp for several years now. It's not inconceivable that the price could come down in the span of time between now and its release.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by nester7929

Ford has had 5.0 performance engines that produce 400 hp for several years now. It's not inconceivable that the price could come down in the span of time between now and its release.

how many of those engines meet federal emissions in their 400hp form?

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

how many of those engines meet federal emissions in their 400hp form?

emissions arent even the half of it, Miles per gallon kill them because with that sort of tune they are going to rape fords cafe score.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by headpunter

emissions arent even the half of it, Miles per gallon kill them because with that sort of tune they are going to rape fords cafe score.

hey, I'm just going to say that its an emissions thing and that they might be able to make the gearing work for them for mileage... but emissions is EVIL when it comes to high performance engines... as it stands, the Mustangs of late have had to have 4 cats, IIRC, to meet federal emissions... so this is a VERY valid point against Ford.