Vararam & other CAIs: Are you addressing the erratic MAF signals they generate?

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Icntdrv55

Ted, do you beleive this MAF issue to be present on the Vararam ? I know you have seen and tested them. What are your thoughts on it?

I personally have not tested them, So I can't comment, RWTD started this thread and this was His Observation.

Ted.

[Dr Jkel]

Thanks Ted, I apprecaite the info. John

[sales@vararam.com]

Here at VR we call this "noise" , "a weak signal".

There are many factors that can cause this , however there are only a handfull of ways to address it properly.

In the Camaro unit - this is a modular unit and as such it is adjustable in many areas.

As an example - We are using a short high volume rear runner, this means that volume is high, but velocity is low.
We then added MAF spacing for velocity adjustment up to .75 inch putting the MAF closer to the bore yielding a stronger signal for ease of tuning, without greatly altering the MAF scaling.

We have also made provisions in the kit for slide in Venturi inserts in the bore , if they were ever needed, again strengthening the signal.

Screens act the same as a venturi , most are not thick enouph ( 1mm) to act as air straightening systems ( 3-4mm is needed) what they tend to do is simply make the inlet smaller ( via their area reduction) This boosts velocity ,which makes for stronger low end signal strength below 2000RPM.
A tuner would see this as "less Noise" .
This will typicaly reduce volume by 30% for a distance of 1-3mm which does not greatly affect peak airflow.

There are other ways as well ( plenum chambers, central blades, longer runners etc..)
All of the above work , it just depends on the application and the volume required to deliver the power you are after for a particular application.
Packaging must also be considered.

The Airspeed on an LS-3 engine at 1000RPM is a "as measured" 6.5-6.8 MPH in five locations around the bore ,flush with the TB Bell mouth.Vacuum pressures equalize at 1,200RPM, 1inch in front of the TB blade.

The Camaro units we have made for forum members are typicaly set up for that particular cars application in an effort to not have to tune, yet allow them to run long tubes, high flow cats etc...

Tune models are -just that, we also work with our dealers to establish the best combination for their customers cars, whether mild or wild.

If a stronger signal is needed we have the ability to alter the Camaro unit so that a more radical combination of camshaft cylinder head etc... can be used, yet street drivability and ease of tune will not be affected.

This unit unlike the G8 and GTO units, is fully modular, allowing for almost infinite adjustment up to its full airflow potential of 700 cu/inch and 1000HP.

VR Tech

[WeeZee]

Originally Posted by Icntdrv55

To my knowledge, VectorMotor Sports has no vested interest in Vararam or any other CAI. I have spoken and exchanged emails with Kirk many times and believe he would have mentioned this if it were the case. I am no mechanical engineer, only a systems engineer so I must rely on my butt dyno and what those I trust tell me. I trust Kirk.

I understand a tune cant cause the airflow to straigten up, but if I am not moticing any of the bucking or serging problem, then what is the "bigger picture" that I am missing?

+1 bro, VMS usues there own cold air kits and have great tunes. I have one on my '07 ImpalaSS V8 and my buddy has one on his '07 TBSS. There tunes work best with there own CAI just puttin it out there. I prefer Livernois Motorsports but VMS is a close 2nd.

[wbt]

Originally Posted by sales@vararam.com

Here at VR we call this "noise" , "a weak signal".

There are many factors that can cause this , however there are only a handfull of ways to address it properly.

In the Camaro unit - this is a modular unit and as such it is adjustable in many areas.

As an example - We are using a short high volume rear runner, this means that volume is high, but velocity is low.
We then added MAF spacing for velocity adjustment up to .75 inch putting the MAF closer to the bore yielding a stronger signal for ease of tuning, without greatly altering the MAF scaling.

We have also made provisions in the kit for slide in Venturi inserts in the bore , if they were ever needed, again strengthening the signal.

Screens act the same as a venturi , most are not thick enouph ( 1mm) to act as air straightening systems ( 3-4mm is needed) what they tend to do is simply make the inlet smaller ( via their area reduction) This boosts velocity ,which makes for stronger low end signal strength below 2000RPM.
A tuner would see this as "less Noise" .
This will typicaly reduce volume by 30% for a distance of 1-3mm which does not greatly affect peak airflow.

There are other ways as well ( plenum chambers, central blades, longer runners etc..)
All of the above work , it just depends on the application and the volume required to deliver the power you are after for a particular application.
Packaging must also be considered.

The Airspeed on an LS-3 engine at 1000RPM is a "as measured" 6.5-6.8 MPH in five locations around the bore ,flush with the TB Bell mouth.Vacuum pressures equalize at 1,200RPM, 1inch in front of the TB blade.

The Camaro units we have made for forum members are typicaly set up for that particular cars application in an effort to not have to tune, yet allow them to run long tubes, high flow cats etc...

Tune models are -just that, we also work with our dealers to establish the best combination for their customers cars, whether mild or wild.

If a stronger signal is needed we have the ability to alter the Camaro unit so that a more radical combination of camshaft cylinder head etc... can be used, yet street drivability and ease of tune will not be affected.

This unit unlike the G8 and GTO units, is fully modular, allowing for almost infinite adjustment up to its full airflow potential of 700 cu/inch and 1000HP.

VR Tech

All good and well but looks like you are masking the "problem" of not needing a tune with your intake by adding this, changing that, removing a part there.....

I would be frustrated as Hell as a customer having to assemble, disassemble, reassemble, add this, remove that....OMG.

[wylde1]

I think the moral of this story is this:

If you want to bolt it on and not worry... go with CAI, ADM, Haltech or the like

If you want something that you can adjust and tweak by swapping pieces here and there and tuning etc, Vararam can provide a more "custom" application.

I don't think these are comparable products aside from the fact they are both intake setups, they are different animals

[axis]

Originally Posted by SK360

There is really no such thing as a "No Tune Intake" Anytime you are changing the flow characteristics of your intake tract it is going to throw your MAF Calibration off.

Just some will give smoother MAF readings then others (Has nothing to do with the tune)

This isn't exactly right. As long as you have the tube section around the MAF the same diameter as the OEM tube and the MAF sits at the exact same depth, you should be good to go. This is assuming you don't have a lot of turbulence in the tube. The maf should correctly read the air going past it. Making a GOOD CAI utilizes this while improving on the OEM flow characteristics. My Halltech ran FT's that were almost identical to the OEM FT's, without a tune.

[DarricSS]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

This Problem does Not exist on CAI, ADM, Halltech, Rotofab, Airaid, or AFE, Possibly others but Not Sure so I can't comment.

The shorter the MAF Pipe and the closer to the TB the bigger the Problem.

Every time an Intake valve opens it sends both a Pressure wave and sound wave back up the intake manifold, and if the MAF is too close to the TB it sees it as both positive and negative air flow, generating what looks like erratic MAF signals affecting driveability.

Ted.

Amazing explanation Ted, thanks...

[sales@vararam.com]

The VR was designed to be adjustable to suit many different combinations and HP levels.

This adjustability is a Bonus to our dealers/ tuners, allowing them to build or tune more aggresssivly for max Power/Torque with excellent drivability.

If you don't want this then you just buy a no tune model and leave it alone.
But nobody leaves a Camaro alone for long, which means at some point you will be tuning.

The power a VR can generate on a stock or Modified car is far beyond the off the shelf hp gains of other intakes. Tuners have already proven what we saw on the flowbench long ago.

It is more complex, because its designed to go far beyond where it is when you take it out of the box. The adjustment is there to allow the intake to grow as your power needs grow.

Our customers/dealers/tuners like having the adjustablity.

VR Tech

[SwiftCat]

Originally Posted by sales@vararam.com

The VR was designed to be adjustable to suit many different combinations and HP levels.

This adjustability is a Bonus to our dealers/ tuners, allowing them to build or tune more aggresssivly for max Power/Torque with excellent drivability.

If you don't want this then you just buy a no tune model and leave it alone.
But nobody leaves a Camaro alone for long, which means at some point you will be tuning.

The power a VR can generate on a stock or Modified car is far beyond the off the shelf hp gains of other intakes. Tuners have already proven what we saw on the flowbench long ago.

It is more complex, because its designed to go far beyond where it is when you take it out of the box. The adjustment is there to allow the intake to grow as your power needs grow.

Our customers/dealers/tuners like having the adjustablity.

VR Tech

That sounds like an excellent sales pitch, but you're spinning to the extreme. The original question pertains to the MAF and turbulent airflow signals. Many who have bought your product (including myself before switching to another CAI) are still having bucking/surging issues even after a tune. It's fine and dandy if you decide to go with the "no-tune" unit and are happy with minimal gains, but for those who want more bang for their buck, many have not been able to remedy the situation in regard to drivability.
Swifty

[1camaro70]

Originally Posted by SwiftCat

That sounds like an excellent sales pitch, but you're spinning to the extreme. The original question pertains to the MAF and turbulent airflow signals. Many who have bought your product (including myself before switching to another CAI) are still having bucking/surging issues even after a tune. It's fine and dandy if you decide to go with the "no-tune" unit and are happy with minimal gains, but for those who want more bang for their buck, many have not been able to remedy the situation in regard to drivability.
Swifty

maybe you need to find another tuner. mine works with OLD tune, not tweeked for intake.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Here at VR we call this "noise" , "a weak signal".

I Disagree,

What we call MAF noise is and erratic signal caused by turbulence nothing more.

Turbulence, Air NOT moving in a laminar flow, or in simple terms going crazy.

You can't have a weak signal unless you have weak air flow across the sensor, and it can still be steady signal.

Ted.

[kbui]

".....Our customers/dealers/tuners like having the adjustablity."

Based on this post, people who only wants a "no tune" CAI solution, needs to remove your intakes from our lists of possible choices? There are numerous owners like myself who are eyeing a few simple mods: cat-backs, CAI...we are obviously looking for a the most gains for the buck without needing a tune for the next 5 years, your CAI is definitely not for us. Your infinite adjustments also preclude a lot of the weekend mechanics who would like to install a CAI themselves. When designing this intake, did you people uses any sort of CFD (Computational Fluids Dynamics) software to understand the airflows you are developing? Just curious.

[SwiftCat]

Originally Posted by 1camaro70

maybe you need to find another tuner. mine works with OLD tune, not tweeked for intake.

Then you're just plain lucky...because it's not a tuning issue, although a tune can help to a degree. BTW...mine is tuned by Vector; what's your tuner's reputation?
My impression is that it's a MAF placement problem. Even mine had minimal surging after installing it, but not eveyone has been that fortunate. Still, I decided not to take a chance on screwing my motor up long-term.