Amp Recommendations?

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by cdigiovanni

im talking quality here! those 3 companies put out solid amps worth the money and backed up with serious warrenties to prove it... not to mention power a sound of course which -overall is the reason these companies are worth their price tags!

BTW ...made in the USA! Not just some "import" amp branded with a logo like most companies that "out-sourse" their amp line to cut cost and quailty for those looking to buy cheaper amp.

any installer worth his OHMS will tell you the same!

my personal favor is

ultra audio
ultrasubs.com

IAS pretty much nailed my response, lol. Most companies now, assemble in the USA, not necessarily made completely in the USA.

I can ramble on about how brands like Kicker has dominated the SQ and SPL lanes, and Pioneer has killed in SPL while brands like McIntosh, Zapco and JL have been dominated in those same lanes. Of course, I've seen those brands win as well, so again, there is no end all be all in car audio.

Most companies out there, save a few, ie; Rockwood, Legacy and certain HiFonics, produce very solid products. They almost all have entry level and top of the line products, with various degrees of build quality amongst them.

No, I'd throw Kicker up against Zapco, I'd throw SunDown up againt Hertz, and I'll go so far as to say this...and challange you...

Richard Clark once put up $10k of his own money for this, no one has claimed it to date. You bring the amps, he'll wire them up in a heads up comparison and in a blind test, you will not be able to tell the difference between them. A watt is a watt is a watt. As long as you aren't driving the amp to clipping, audible clipping at that, you will not be able to tell the difference in similar powered amplifers. Trained hears haven't collected that money as far as I know. Can you? If you can, call Richard Clark...

THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {revised May 28 , 2005}
By Richard Clark
There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier performance and our ability to hear performance differences.
It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include "obvious" advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange response whereas other amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems.
Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular amplifier is better than another amplifier. Differences in the quality of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole purpose of my amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible.
What differences are Audible?
I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary psycho-acoustics. For instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a difference. In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or superb marketing and packaging that caused the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated within its linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear.
Comparing Amps
The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to carefully match the amps so that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of high frequency boost against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers with consecutive serial numbers.
For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able to identify each amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm sounding, smooth, bass hog "widget Bs."
Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those differences are probably going to be very, very small, it is important that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as possible. This means that we must be cognizant of differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already mentioned the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a balanced amp. Right?
Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the following section.
Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

[shevyman]

i am sorry but if i had the money i would take the chalenge.

we have a amp rack with a few sets of speakers and two sets of subs.
i was playing with it to see the difference. and i will tell you that off the two brand i like i could tell the more expensive one had a cleaner sound. also we were doing this off a very expensive set of door speakers which should not make a difference but when we changed the amps i heard a difference in volume and in the clarity. so sorry but your ramble and challenge is pointless until you try it yourself.

[shevyman]

Originally Posted by IAS

I gotta chime in here too...yes Audison in more known for being Sound Q oritented. and Hertz EP is a great budget line... with killer performance for the price. Hertz also has the HP line of amps that are much more high power and great ffor loud, but will run very clean as well.
Audison runs the SRX line as their Starter level amps very nice perfomance and sound quality a little lacking in the power dept. The LRX line has some killer special application amps and they do have much better power numbers with improved SQ then there is the THESIS line... some of the best you could ever buy... but you may need to mortage your home to do so. with amps start in the 2000.00 range on up to 12000.00 this is not an area most people will play. I do like Audison gear a lot but I think it to be a bit over priced for what it is.

Arc has 3 lines of products, the XXD which has fully digital amps that have tons of volume and sound good for a digital amp, very budget oriented. the KS line (Kar Series) which are great amplifiers... on par easily with some of the higher end amps on the market. excellent sound quality and great power.
The SE (or Signature Edition) are some fo the best amps I have used.... even above some Audison (the LRX Series) and more Wallet Friendly than the THESIS amps, but they are still gonna set you back a bit depending on your needs.

yeah i know about there product. see i am not going to explain all that cause some people can care less. once they message me i will explain.
i know the prices and the different class's. also if you add the bit one from audison that will help out the thessis even more.
i have gone from fosgate kenwood jl. to avi,hertz, arc. had audison but amp messed up. i think the guy was playing me. i had it turned in to be fixed. waited two weeks and nothing, also was told they were going to replace it with the new model and still nothing. so then they guy sold me the arc and two weeks with out sounds is boring so i bought.

when i told the rep that they never replaced my amp, the guy came up and said no we got it two days later. so yeah little story of why arc amp.

but yeah i know the arc lines also we did a set up in a lambo and really impressed many people.

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by shevyman

i am sorry but if i had the money i would take the chalenge.

we have a amp rack with a few sets of speakers and two sets of subs.
i was playing with it to see the difference. and i will tell you that off the two brand i like i could tell the more expensive one had a cleaner sound. also we were doing this off a very expensive set of door speakers which should not make a difference but when we changed the amps i heard a difference in volume and in the clarity. so sorry but your ramble and challenge is pointless until you try it yourself.

I am gonna have to say... list the amps used for this little project you are talking about.

and...

Show how all of these were met via photo documentation

Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

and if so... you need to call Richard Clark to Collect your 10,000 and we will see you in the Car Audio Hall of Fame

[CamaroDreams07]

Hahahaha all this because I wanted to know what amp I should run. Now I don't even understand 20% of the words in this thread.'

Fight on guys..

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by shevyman

i am sorry but if i had the money i would take the chalenge.

we have a amp rack with a few sets of speakers and two sets of subs.
i was playing with it to see the difference. and i will tell you that off the two brand i like i could tell the more expensive one had a cleaner sound. also we were doing this off a very expensive set of door speakers which should not make a difference but when we changed the amps i heard a difference in volume and in the clarity. so sorry but your ramble and challenge is pointless until you try it yourself.

The beauty of the challange, you don't need any money. Just bring the amps. They have to be similar in power, ie; 50wrms x2 @ 2ohm, not one at 50x2 @ 2 and one at 125x2 @ 2ohm. That's it, Richard is putting up the money.

Seriously, I've installed more systems then I count, with as much different product as you can imagine. From Arc to Zapco, if it's car audio, chances are I've installed it. In Richard's challange, and set up properly, same speakers, jsut different amps and gadgets zero'd out, and amps not driven to clipping, you will not hear a difference. A watt is a watt is a watt. Now, add in the gadgets, phase control, time alignment, crossovers and their various slopes, and things start to change.

Originally Posted by IAS

and if so... you need to call Richard Clark to Collect your 10,000 and we will see you in the Car Audio Hall of Fame

Lol, yes we would!

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by CamaroDreams07

Hahahaha all this because I wanted to know what amp I should run. Now I don't even understand 20% of the words in this thread.'

Fight on guys..

In short, choose the amp that best matches your setup, ie; speaker choice. That is, impedance and rms power. Choose the amp that best matches you budget.

We can sit here and debate the virtues of every amp manufacturer on the planet, and still not resolve the question. The truth is, as long as you buy the best quality amp within your budget, you really can't go wrong. Unless your budget is $50, lol.

Anyway, look for ease of service, meaning is there a local dealer to take care of warranty issues. Look at warranties, and how they are applied. Some won't warranty a self-installed product, while others will add time for professional installation.

Then buy based on that.

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by mrray13

In short, choose the amp that best matches your setup, ie; speaker choice. That is, impedance and rms power. Choose the amp that best matches you budget.

We can sit here and debate the virtues of every amp manufacturer on the planet, and still not resolve the question. The truth is, as long as you buy the best quality amp within your budget, you really can't go wrong. Unless your budget is $50, lol.

Anyway, look for ease of service, meaning is there a local dealer to take care of warranty issues. Look at warranties, and how they are applied. Some won't warranty a self-installed product, while others will add time for professional installation.

Then buy based on that.

What he said!!

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by mrray13

The beauty of the challange, you don't need any money. Just bring the amps. They have to be similar in power, ie; 50wrms x2 @ 2ohm, not one at 50x2 @ 2 and one at 125x2 @ 2ohm. That's it, Richard is putting up the money.

Seriously, I've installed more systems then I count, with as much different product as you can imagine. From Arc to Zapco, if it's car audio, chances are I've installed it. In Richard's challange, and set up properly, same speakers, jsut different amps and gadgets zero'd out, and amps not driven to clipping, you will not hear a difference. A watt is a watt is a watt. Now, add in the gadgets, phase control, time alignment, crossovers and their various slopes, and things start to change.

Gadets FTW!!! :

[cdigiovanni]

Originally Posted by IAS

I am gonna have to say... list the amps used for this little project you are talking about.

and...

Show how all of these were met via photo documentation

Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

and if so... you need to call Richard Clark to Collect your 10,000 and we will see you in the Car Audio Hall of Fame

do you have Mr. Clarks number?

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by cdigiovanni

do you have Mr. Clarks number?

Seriously? lol... Here's the complete rules and I was wrong, it can cost you money! So you better have some golden ears!!

Here's some more info and Comments by Richard.


http://www.davidnavone.com/

Try him, to get in touch with Richard. As most posts about the test are better then 4 years old, I'm not for sure how to go about getting in touch with him.

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by IAS

Gadets FTW!!! :

Yep..they make a difference!

[shevyman]

[QUOTE=mrray13;1901508]The beauty of the challange, you don't need any money. Just bring the amps. They have to be similar in power, ie; 50wrms x2 @ 2ohm, not one at 50x2 @ 2 and one at 125x2 @ 2ohm. That's it, Richard is putting up the money.

Seriously, I've installed more systems then I count, with as much different product as you can imagine. From Arc to Zapco, if it's car audio, chances are I've installed it. In Richard's challange, and set up properly, same speakers, jsut different amps and gadgets zero'd out, and amps not driven to clipping, you will not hear a difference. A watt is a watt is a watt. Now, add in the gadgets, phase control, time alignment, crossovers and their various slopes, and things start to ch
Lol, yes we would![/QUOTE


ok so you are saying like take two 100watt amps and just wire it up to a subwoofer. or to a set of components or coax. cause you said with out the crossover so i guess coax. now when i was talking i was speaking off components. and i did it off three diff amps but they were different watts. to be frank i missed the part talking about watts.

so i guess what you mean is to take a hifonics amp with a arc amp lets say both minimum watts like 400. and set them up to a speaker and i wont notice the diffference between the two?

now if hooked up to vocals i would cause the arc has better resisters and filters and just a sub i can not answer cause that i have not done.

[mrray13]

[QUOTE=shevyman;1915169]

Originally Posted by mrray13

The beauty of the challange, you don't need any money. Just bring the amps. They have to be similar in power, ie; 50wrms x2 @ 2ohm, not one at 50x2 @ 2 and one at 125x2 @ 2ohm. That's it, Richard is putting up the money.

Seriously, I've installed more systems then I count, with as much different product as you can imagine. From Arc to Zapco, if it's car audio, chances are I've installed it. In Richard's challange, and set up properly, same speakers, jsut different amps and gadgets zero'd out, and amps not driven to clipping, you will not hear a difference. A watt is a watt is a watt. Now, add in the gadgets, phase control, time alignment, crossovers and their various slopes, and things start to ch
Lol, yes we would![/QUOTE


ok so you are saying like take two 100watt amps and just wire it up to a subwoofer. or to a set of components or coax. cause you said with out the crossover so i guess coax. now when i was talking i was speaking off components. and i did it off three diff amps but they were different watts. to be frank i missed the part talking about watts.

so i guess what you mean is to take a hifonics amp with a arc amp lets say both minimum watts like 400. and set them up to a speaker and i wont notice the diffference between the two?

now if hooked up to vocals i would cause the arc has better resisters and filters and just a sub i can not answer cause that i have not done.

Yep, like powered amps. ie; that 400wrms you mentioned, no filters engaged, crossovers, nothing, and not driven to clipping, on ANY speaker, you will not hear a difference. The amps have to be set within a .5% of each other, or something like that.

As long as the amplifier is not driven outside it's design capabilities, you will not hear the difference between like powered/topology amplifiers. Now, toss in the onboard eq's, crossovers and such, and things might change.

There is still something to be said about an Arc amp compared next to an HiFonics amp next to a Rockwood. And in most cases, the price difference is worth it. But sometimes....