Detroit Free-press -- a MUST READ

[StuMac]

Originally Posted by GLBL WMR

+1

It goes to show that they are still not being honest with their situation, and that $15 billion was just the tip of the iceberg. It is so easy to see that I can't understand for the life of me how anybody sees anything but chapter 11 as the only option. I understand that its a very good possibility that it will escalate to chapter 7, but there is no other option that makes ANY sense. I am totally against bailouts, but some kind of government backed chapter 11 would be acceptable to me - just it would keep the entire GM workforce from getting buried.

For the same reason they didn't let the banks and financial institutions go bankrupt, it will bring the country to it's knees. Forget the industry, forget the lack of consumer confidence, forget suppliers having to go cash only with the big 3. The problem with trying to shed the legacy costs, is that's 300,000 * 3.5 = over 1 million retirees who depend on that pension because they had no reason to believe it would ever go away. Your economy can not handle that many people suddenly having no income all at once, not now, not ever.

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by StuMac

For the same reason they didn't let the banks and financial institutions go bankrupt, it will bring the country to it's knees. Forget the industry, forget the lack of consumer confidence, forget suppliers having to go cash only with the big 3. The problem with trying to shed the legacy costs, is that's 300,000 * 3.5 = over 1 million retirees who depend on that pension because they had no reason to believe it would ever go away. Your economy can not handle that many people suddenly having no income all at once, not now, not ever.

Wow... the flappy headed guy understands our economy better than most Americans...

[DeLegend]

The government is real corrupt..... but the Auto Industry isn't ran by Angels either.....

[PieNsky]

Originally Posted by 1camaro70

I am going to be unpopular but, how can GM build cars for $72 per hour and the foreign manufacturers building in the USA at $48 per hour?

The search function would show you that no one is making 70+ an hour, that's number (72) is including the ones who are retired insurance, it is more like 55 an hour when including such things as insurance, holiday pay, vacation pay etc. The hourly pay is similar to the transplants but they have fewer holidays and lesser insurance and retirees have much worse insurance for the few that have retired from the transplants so their costs are going to be lower just because that don't have 300,000 retirees.


If GM would go into bankruptcy and releave itself of a union contract that is putting them out of business in the first place, how much could they reduce the price on their cars and trucks, 1/3 ? what about 20% I will be buying a new Camaro, Z71 Truck and the Volt.

It is costing about 800 dollars a vehicle due to lower sales. If you hadn't noticed, Toyotas and Hondas already sell for a premium over the Big 3.

[StoutFiles]

I think you and those other senators need to be hung on the white house lawn as TRAITORS

I'm a traitor because I agree with the Senators who believe GM's filing for bankruptcy is inevitable? That we're just delaying the process by giving them money?

Everyone, please stop using the banks as an example of why GM isn't getting money. The banks don't deserve the money but the banks control the economy...we are too dependent on them. If you use the bank bailout as a reason GM should be paid, then why didn't Circuit City get a loan? There would be an endless line of companies wanting loans...you have to say no at some point.

All GM had to do was give them a future financial plan and they haven't...I think GM knows what Washington is thinking...they can't turn a profit for a long time. They are stalling the inevitable. I want the Camaro just as bad as anyone else but I want the government to make the right decision...and I believe that decision is to help back GM when under Chapter 11.

[kylepo]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

It is costing about 800 dollars a vehicle due to lower sales. If you hadn't noticed, Toyotas and Hondas already sell for a premium over the Big 3.

what the hell are you talking about???

[Speedfreak]

The current situation with our Automakers is in my opinion 75% the fault of the Federal Government. Bush is going to have to send king paul down to guantanamo bay and waterboard him for a week to pry one red cent of Tarp funds out. That money is his and is only for his boys on Wall Street.....

The fact that these blowhards in congress dragged the auto execs to DC to "beg for a handout" is ****ing offensive when their boys on Wall Street Get off scott free. Mabye they ought to refund to the American Auto companies 100 billion to help offset the hundreds of billions of unfunded mandates they have shoved down their throats.............

[bobscogin]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

All GM had to do was give them a future financial plan and they haven't...I think GM knows what Washington is thinking...they can't turn a profit for a long time. They are stalling the inevitable. I want the Camaro just as bad as anyone else but I want the government to make the right decision...and I believe that decision is to help back GM when under Chapter 11.

Agreed. Rather than just hand the money over to GM, the government should provide funding through a "pre-packaged bankruptcy" whereby the money is used to guarantee payment to vendors / suppliers. This would allow GM to re-negotiate all contracts including UAW while still providing some assurance to vendors and other creditors that they will be paid. Simply handing them cash which will be gone by the end of the 1st quarter of '09 is simply giving the junkie another fix instead of getting him off the needle.

Bob

[maxdmax]

I think we all want the same thing here. We want the financial markets and the auto industry back on its feet and making money again. We want our tax money used wisely. The problem here is it is looks like the government, financial industry, UAW and/or the auto industry management may not have the common sense to get us out of this mess. It better be the new administration or we are in a world of hurt! That’s what I think.

[themossman]

It seems to me that the article is chiding Washington on one side and then complaining that Detroit didn't make out in the grab for 'free money'. Isn't that a bit hypocritical in and of itself?


The article also stated

Originally Posted by article

At least in the auto industry, if folks don’t like what you make, they don’t have to buy it. In government, even your worst mistakes, we have to live with.

Um...well, it seems to me a bailout would mean that we ARE buying it...without a choice.

US automakers have festooned our streets with over sized and overpriced SUVs for decades...and were capitalizing on a negative trend...and were obviously very ill prepared for the downturn in demand in that segment. The consumers were buying...but they are responsible ONLY to their wallets...they are not accountable for GM's lack of foresight.

As for labor...if you have three retirees for every active worker...there is OBVIOUSLY something wrong. Is it the retirement plan? The employee buyouts during lean times? I don't know. But it's immediately apparent there exists some issues with labor and GM.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the current state of GM or the other manufacturers...but this article is not something that anyone should stand behind for justification of support.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-herring.html


Scott....I hope you don't take offense. There's tremendous emotion involved...and lots of people that are operating in their own best interests...good people will land on their feet. And who really cares about the rest?


My camaro order is still active and in the last month I put a couple thousand of 'discretionary' funds into US automakers stock. I hope they survive and come out stronger than before. Personally, I would like to see GM consolidate under a focused brand mix (sorry Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Hummer, Buick, et al).

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by 1camaro70

What I am commenting on is the average GM employee actually makes $29 / hr and Toyota $31/ hr but cost to manufacturer with all the benefits is $72 verses $48. that is 1/3 MORE. How can GM, Ford and Chrysler stay in business, they do not make money giving rebates on all their cars, from the $0 profit they are making with benefit packages like that.

well - a quick way to solve that is to turn those costs over to the government -- which, essentially means "turn them over to you!"

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

This kills me. We are blasting the Senate for what again...not giving the auto industry a loan? The American auto industry messed up big for so many years and now that foreign competition is coming in, they need...nay...EXPECT a loan...which is defined as a loan but in GM's case it's basically a bailout. GM expects the govt. to save them for their mistakes and if they don't get it...well the Senate is EVIL. I hope if anything this whole situation has humbled GM.

Let's be real here. GM will never go Chapter 7 because if they do go Chapter 11 the govt. will then help them. Chapter 11 pleases the Republicans, and the Democrats won't change their stance. Either way GM will get their money...it's just different paths to get there.

actually, I'm blasting the Senate for their Hippocrisy.

Let's face facts - the United States Government has not helped the domestic auto industry. Go look at what the European Union does for their manufacturers -- and go look at what Korea and Japan do for theirs (not to mention closed markets...)

I am not in favor of the Government bailouts........BUT -- what is the alternative for the Big Three? Make no mistake - when the avalanche starts, very few people will completely escape -- most will bear the burden.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by stovt001

Save them from their mistakes? What mistakes? Forcing themselves to build cars to a certain fuel efficiency then pursuing policies to keep the price of gas low? Nope, that wasn't GM, that was the government. Turning a blind eye to the foreign governments violating free trade policies, manipulating currency and what not? Nope, that was the government too. Enforcing difficult union and franchise laws? Still not GM, still our beloved government. Subsidizing the operations of foreign brands? NOT GM BUT YES THE VERY SAME GOVERNMENT THAT WOULDN'T GIVE A DIME TO AMERICAN COMPANIES. And yet despite this government intentionally pursuing policies that would hurt American manufacturers and boost foreign brands, they still managed a turn around plan that was going along wonderfully. And then came the credit crisis, and with it the economic crisis, brought about by government economic and financial policies, Democratic and Republican alike, that encouraged risk and unaccountability. That crippled car sales for everyone, not just Detroit. So you're damn straight the American car companies should expect a bailout. They should expect a bailout, an apology, and the resignation of the vast majority of our elected officials. GM deserves it, Ford deserves it, Chrysler deserves it, and most of all the American people deserve it.

Thank you, Stovt001 -- you put in writing what I was thinking -- and frankly I'm so burned out these days I can't get it down on paper sometimes......er-- uh - into cyberspace, that is.........

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

All GM had to do was give them a future financial plan and they haven't.......

We -- as well as Chrysler and Ford most CERTAINLY have given them a very comprehensive business plan. We aren't putting it on the front page of the New York Times because this is one of the most competitive businesses in the world!

Suffice to say that we provided them with a plan that shows we can break even at a low number -- it's a 'downside' business plan -- and IF the economy gains any momentum above 'downside' -- we pay back the loan even sooner.

Here's the REAL Problem: Too many journalists think they're Warren Buffett.......and too many people are not looking at all the facts --