Improve Camaro SS Handling Feel (Long Post)

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Magneto' Supercars?...

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz28

Magneto' Supercars?...

We are beyond that. We are ready to go into Flux-capacitor production.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

i don't know about that, i've seen the video's, it goes over 88mph, could get a little scary on the re-entry

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Rob@WretchedMS

i don't know about that, i've seen the video's, it goes over 88mph, could get a little scary on the re-entry

That is where the suspension takes over.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by BMR guy

We have been building both Camaro and Mustang suspensions for the last 13 years which gives us tons of test data from both vehicles. Over the years they have both packed on the weight however the Mustang tends to "wear" it better. This is mainly due to a better matched spring and sway bar combo, less suspension flex (can you say Camaro cradle bushings), less overall weight and lighter un-sprung suspension/wheel weight.

If you were to compare the Zeta Camaro to the 2010 or older S197 Mustangs, the Chevy would walk all over the Ford. The 2011 Mustang however has much improved spring and sway bars rates, way more usable power and with the Brembo option, better matched brakes for the weight of the vehicle.

That being said it's not too difficult to get your Camaro to out-perform the 2011 Mustang. A set of rear cradle bushing inserts to stabilize the rear suspension cradle, a set of lowering springs to increase the spring rate, and a set of adjustable swaybars to reduce the body roll. These 3 mods alone will edge you past the Mustang, despite the weight and braking disadvantages. The best thing about these mods is that the car will "feel" smaller and lighter in the process making the car even more enjoyable to drive...

Hi,
In your page, I see many cradle bushings. Which are the ones that you recommend? Do you think that also it needs the differential bushings?

Also which lowering springs are the one's that you recommend?

[L99CAMA2011]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Camaro SS in track action - Looking good.

First off let me state I drove and obsessed between the Mustang 5.0 and the Camaro SS and I am very happy with my choice. I am not going to bash my SS.

But in driving the two almost back to back it becomes apparent the Mustang feels like it handles better then the Camaro. But yet on the track (the kind with curves) they are very close as evidenced below.

Trying to achieve handling feel is not like the drags or dyno where you get hard numbers to back up your changes. It is all in the driving experience, the way driving the car makes you feel.

Car and Driver, the magazine many here now love to hate, does a cool thing every year with their Lightning Lap. They take the current crop of new cars back to the same track year after year so you can compare track times between different cars.

From this test we know the Brembo Mustang 5.0 is only slightly faster than the Camaro. One would assume the non-Brembo Mustang would not fare so well against the SS. Car and Driver also includes very concise summaries of each car that help explain how the drivers feel about the car they are hot-lappng.

The following two excerpts are from Car and Driver:





So there you have it. Even though both cars track (at least on this fast track) about the same, the Ford feels better.

My question here for either modded suspension Camaro owners familiar with both cars or the suspension upgrade craftsman is how do we get that crisp neutral feel the Brembo Mustang possesses in the Camaro. Or conversely how do we get rid of the ponderous barge feeling in the Camaro?

I know the Mustang enjoys a 225 pound weight advantage but that cannot be the whole answer. I suppose some of this answer may lie in suspension geometry and steering hardware that is expensive to alter. But how much of this is the suspension and how much is the SUV heavy wheels and tires?

The Camaro has two big advantages over the mustang, a more rigid chassis and IRS. Why the disparity? We know the Chevy guys spent a lot of time tuning the Camaro suspension. Are the Ford guys that much better?

I am looking at upgrading My Camaros suspension in the spring. I know the rear sway bar will help with the understeer.

But how do I achieve that crisp, light on it's feet, tossable feel in my Camaro and lose the ocean freighter effect?

I noticed a lighter set of coilovers like Pedders, BC racing, Penske if you can afford them and the new Pfadt coilovers and lighter wheels, TSW, Forgeline etc and bushing mods with sways will make you car feel lighter for sure no question, you will be surprised.

[Richy_Rich]

Get this.
http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/p...roducts_id/214

this,
http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/p...roducts_id/178

and these braces,
http://www.mtiracing.com/Purchase/Ne...ion-Parts.html

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz28

Whoa whoa whoa... You sold it?!!! WTF?!!! You must be pretty confident in Z28!

Could be I'll have that Z/28 for C5FEST V

Back on topic. Everyone is now aware that the Z/28 is running Pedders style 305/30/19s all round. The matched front and rear setup reduces understeer and lowers the CG by lowering the car just over an inch.

Z style outboard mounting sway bars have transformed 5th Gen handling. While some are using 1LE bars, the best OE parts bin option are the ZL1 bars. The difference in front to rear bar size is 3mm. With the rear bar larger the car is more neutral with less understeer. Pedders Z bars have a difference if 5mm :-)

Alignment specs are mission critical. Setting the front toe to 0.00 front camber to -1.25 rear toe IN to 0.10 per side and rear camber to 0.00. Steering feel is improved. Turn in is improved. No parts need be purchased or replaced.

Foundational bushings are the same ones that we listed back in 2009. Rear sub-frame inserts or full replacement bushes address wear end step out. Full bushes or inserts reduce unwanted caster changes up front. Combine these with alignment and your 5th Gen steering is crisp, a on center with improved turn in.

The Z style toe links out of the IE parts bin are a great addition to any 5th Gen that doesn't already have them.

A few bushes, bars and alignment with 305/30/19s has your Camaro in LS Boss hunting mode. Add Supercars, Dual Bearing Camber Plates, a few more bushes and start looking for Vettes and 'supercars' :-D

[SPCBA]

Originally Posted by Doc

There are some basics that need to be addressed to improve the Camaro's "track feel".

The first and minimum is to replace the rear cradle and differential bushings to get that rubbery response under control. If you did nothing else but change those you'd be amazed at how much better the car will feel. Even with the stock sway bars the difference is considerable.

Second is kind of tricky because there are 2 ways you can go. One is relatively inexpensive and kinda/sorta does the job by the brute force method which is to replace the factory sway bars with stiffer bars. It works for controlling body roll around a corner when going fast but it's not a "precision" solution. It does work however and definitely improves the car's performance over stock.

The other way to go is more expensive but is in fact a "precision" solution and will give you that race car finesse feel when steering and cornering; even at low speeds. And it gives you that even with the factory sway bars. The good news is you can do the precision solution which ultimately includes replacing the sway bars, by starting with the sway bars and gradually changing the other components needed to get the final result. So whether you do sway bars first or later that will still fit in the overall plan.

As we all know who own one, the Camaro is a heavy car. Beautiful, my favorite car I've ever owned in my life... but heavy. Weight is the enemy of response; the more weight, the slower and more sluggish the response. There are 2 kinds of weight on a car; sprung weight which is everything being held up and controlled by the springs, and unsprung weight which is not being held up by the springs. The body is sprung weight for example, and the wheels/tires/brakes are not.

The cornering/handling response is a direct result of wheels, tires, brakes, suspension geometry, springs and dampening (shocks). That delay and hesitation described in your original quotes from Car&Driver are the result of the massive weight of these components and the time it takes for the suspension to control them when conditions are changing, such as turning the wheel.

For example the factory wheel/tire weighs 62 lbs in the front; the brake rotor weighs 24 lbs. Now add the caliper, brake pads, steering arms, control arms, etc. and you've got over 100 lbs of weight hanging out there being violently yanked up and down and thrown from side to side with over a ton and a half of weight riding on it. The bushings and shocks are being asked to control all that smoothly, precisely and comfortably... yeah right. They actually do a pretty good job from the factory when you consider everything that has to be done and still give a comfortable ride. Is it race ready performance? No, but I'd say at least 95% of Camaro owners aren't going to race. The great thing about these cars though is the other 5% who do want to race can make changes and bring these cars up to awesome performance levels.

If you want to go beyond rear bushings and sway bar upgrades, take your time and understand what you want to do and make a plan because mods beyond those things begin to get expensive and you don't want to throw away your money or wind up screwing up your car to the point where it's not fun to be in and drive anymore.

Weight is the enemy of handling response so look at doing things to reduce weight, and in particular, unsprung weight. The very best weight to reduce is unsprung rotational weight such as wheels, tires, brake rotors because not only does removing that kind of weight make the suspension more responsive (less weight for the shocks and steering to control means faster and more precise response) it also improves acceleration, de-acceleration and braking.

It takes power to get weight moving. The more the weight, the more power and more time it takes to get it up to speed. And once it's moving, it takes time to change it's direction or slow it down. Two critical areas are wheels/tires and brake rotors. Those are bolt-on mod areas which though pricey, give you a great bang for your buck for what it does to handling and steering response. Depending on your budget, either replace the wheels/tires with lighter ones first if looks are a high priority, or, if you want to improve performance and spend less than a full set of lighter wheels/tires will cost, change the brake rotors.

I've seen a lot of guys that get drilled and slotted rotors because they think they "look cool" which is fine if you're basically just building a car for show, but if you're aiming for race track response and performance, there are other things to consider besides how they look. Number one, brake rotors are for slowing and/or stopping. If you just haphazardly drill holes in it "for cooling" and/or slot it without paying attention to the distance between the holes and whether or not you might actually be weakening it, you may actually wind up with less safety and performance than if you just left them stock. Not all slotted and drilled rotors are equal. Don't buy on the basis of price; brakes are so important for safety and performance that it's not the area to "save money" on.

Fortunately we Camaro owners have a first-class solution designed for us. They aren't cheap; a full set are about what most are paying for a catback exhaust system or name-brand headers. RacingBrake has a 2-piece rotor that is slotted and drilled in an ingenious way that improves weight and performance without compromising the safety or integrity of the rotor. Their rotors are just slightly less than 6 lbs lighter than the stock rotors. So a full set saves almost 24 lbs of unsprung rotational weight, and under hard braking they're going to run cooler; if I remember right it was about 25% cooler under hard braking conditions compared to stock rotors. This means significantly less chance of brake fade. My project thread has pics of them before and after I got them on my car:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...t=45165&page=2

If you do the brake rotors first and still have the stock wheels, you'll notice that the car will feel a bit "lighter" because the reduction of weight on each corner of the car improves it's ability to respond to road conditions and steering changes, plus it will respond a bit quicker when you're rolling and step on the gas, such as making a passing move on the freeway.

If you chose wheels/tires before brakes, or did them afterwards they're still a critical area for performance. It's an extremely subjective area too because of looks. Without going into the looks issue, again, weight is the enemy. If you're building a car mostly for looks and show, go bigger but you'll be adding weight. If you're building a car for performance and want race track feel and response, go lighter which can (and usually does) mean smaller than stock because the factory wheels are big. You'll also be spending money because lighter means forged rims which are not cheap. Again just like with rotors; not all forged rims are equal...ask questions and do your research before spending your money. And it's not just the rims; the tires have different weights depending on the size which adds to the weight of the rims so research tire weights from the tire manufacturers spec sheets too so you'll understand what each purchase does or doesn't do for your project build.

If you've looked at my project thread you'll see the wheel/tire combo I chose which is 19 x 9.5 rims and 275/40-19 tires. Ignoring style/color/brand the important thing is the width and weight. I chose the same width for all 4 so I can rotate my tires and extend the life of them but I also chose a width that is 1.5" wider in front and .5" wider in back than stock so I have a greater contact patch on the ground; especially in the front which affects steering and front-end cornering. I wanted to save weight compared to stock so I went down an inch to a 19" rim and went up in sidewall for the tires because sidewalls help to absorb road shock and improve the ride. The net result is even though they're wider than stock, they're 5 lbs lighter each than the stock fronts and 10 lbs lighter each than the stock rears. This is a total savings of 30 lbs of unsprung rotating weight for all 4. Combine that with the 24 lbs of savings from the brake rotors, and I've removed 54 lbs of unsprung rotating weight off the corners of my car with just these two mods alone. That's 54 lbs of weight the engine does NOT have to get moving; the brakes do NOT have to slow down; and the shocks do NOT have to try and dampen and control. Lift a 50 lb bag of cement and you'll appreciate just how much weight that is.

Am I going to win show awards? No. The guys that like the big wheels typically hate my car and say how they'd never be caught dead in a car with wheels like that, etc. and so on. But when I'm in motion they don't get to see them for very long anyways so it's not a big deal. When I'm behind the wheel I don't see them either but boy do I feel the difference in the car's performance. My car simply goes where I point it; without drama. Clean, precise, smooth. It's a joy to be in and drive. I haven't done engine mods yet (which I'm about to) but this car as-is goes when you mash the pedal. I can take a freeway on/off ramp at double the rated speed without any drama whatsoever. And that was before I upgraded the sway bars. The bushings, coilovers, wheels and brake rotors made that much of a difference just by themselves. I've since upgraded the sway bars and the car is almost scary now in what it can do. It FEELS like it's race track ready which is downright exciting to drive around in.

Make a plan; do your research on the components you want before you buy. Don't get swayed by "peer fever" and get something just because somebody else did and was saying how awesome it was, etc. Know what you want to do and what your goals are; if you don't have a goal then think about it and come up with one. Look for lighter and stronger; not just cheap. If it means you have to wait a month longer to get the mod you really want instead of settling for something cheaper that you can buy now, wait and get the part that's best. It pays in subtle ways as to how it "plays with others" by how it works with the rest of the components of your car.

A car is a system of many things; one thing affects other things. There isn't any one single thing that can turn it into your awesome dream car; it will be a combination of many things that you change over time. If you intelligently develop a plan and research things to fit your plan, then you won't waste money replacing things that were bought on impulse because you were impatient or hadn't done your research and didn't realize what the real results would be on YOUR car with everything you have done or want to do to it.

Do it right; you're modifying a legend.

Old thread but a goodie... This post from Doc alone should be a sticky in at least 3 forum sections; suspension/brakes, the tracking section, and the wheel section.

Docs build thread is a must read for anyone interested in performance.