1LE vs Boss (Automobile Magazine)

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I will say that with the exception of a couple of Mustang guys it's strange how quiet they are in this thread compared to the ZL1 threads. Hmmmmm wonder why? Is the typical Mustang guy more of a 1/4 mile guy?

Certainly not this Mustang owner. But you're probably right about the majority of Mustang owners in general, particularly the fanboys.

I'd seen the thread before, just hadn't fully formed an opinion.

Possibly the recent forum re-organization that buried the Z28 forum has also made this forum a little less noticeable, and possibly the ZL1 vs GT500 matter is finally getting too old for most folks to want to much bother with any more.

Originally Posted by shaffe

And my sports car riding like a Cadillac is not what I want in my pony car. Nor do I want a computer nanny , I don't want it refined

My own thoughts run pretty close to this - more accurately I don't want a "Cadillac ride" or nannies in any of my cars. If that sounds like I want my cars to still be just a little bit "raw" or just a little rough around the edges, I'm making my point.

There's a difference between technical excellence and "refinement". You want the former, at least as it applies to providing the performance potential and making it reasonably accessible.

But "refinement" in its usual sense implies taking that further, and for production cars the primary motivation is not for reasons of improving performance. When you polish away all of the little nuances that define a car or its traditional market segment, you're breeding the character out of it and morphing it into something else. I think that's what Automobile Magazine is getting at.


Couple of thoughts concerning refinement . . . which in ultimate form would perhaps be little more than a video game on wheels (no, thank you).

Yes, IRS can be a step up in performance as well as having obvious advantages in refinement - but only if it has the technical excellence in place to begin with. It appears that with the ZL1 and 1LE, ponycar IRS has (finally) reached parity with a well-done stick axle suspension. It's important to note that I'm not saying the S197 Mustang is all the way to "well done stick axle" status here, despite the earlier consensus on its handling relative to the Camaro and Challenger. The S197 actually is pretty damn good as a track day/autocross car, but there is certainly room for improvement. Some of the things probably couldn't be done as OE without revisions to the basic car arrangement, and even then, even refinement-be-damned, the current 1LE might still put up the better numbers.

Now let's talk about exhaust. I don't think I'd be sticking my neck out very far to suggest that most people here wouldn't want their Camaro made still quieter, or to have the dual-mode exhaust system dialed back to quiet and really quiet. But there are people who would consider that a worthwhile "refinement".

See what I'm getting at about refinement not always being something to keep pursuing?


Norm

[bpmurr]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I will say that with the exception of a couple of Mustang guys it's strange how quiet they are in this thread compared to the ZL1 threads. Hmmmmm wonder why? Is the typical Mustang guy more of a 1/4 mile guy?

Not really much to say. They don't give any numbers in the head to head just an opinion. Hopefully there will be some more in-depth reviews.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

You win. I'll grin. I bought my car knowing something better would come along, which is cool, I change cars all the time on a whim. Only I truly love this car so it's saying. It's as they say "The raucous Mustang installs itself in your subconscious with the viciousness of a drug addiction. Despite knowing there's an objectively better alternative with a Chevy badge, we are lured back to the Boss again and again. Its responsive chassis, competent handling, and brawny engine strike us in a psychological weak spot where emotions overrule sensibilities. We'd never question someone for making the rational choice of a Camaro SS 1LE, but reason be damned, the Boss 302 is the car we want."

It's been a very long time since I've loved driving a car this much.

No doubt about it. The current Boss 302 is the best Mustang ever and belongs in the Muscle Car Hall of Fame. (Yea, even better than any GT500 to me.) I can understand the attraction of a car that feels and sounds rowdy, is looking for trouble, and loves to be ridden to the edge. At other times the same car can be tiring. One of each for me please.

Whether or not it is the fastest at the track does not matter, really, how many of us will be running in open road track competition with our $40,000+ cars? The closest I will ever get is a Track Day where the car ahead of me waves me by. Or I do the waving myself to the better driven Boss 302. Respect.

Now the drag strip is another matter. There I am sure a well driven and prepped Boss will own a 2013 1LE. We can settle that one there for real. And for those of you who think racing the 1/4 mile is simple and anyone can do it well, give it a try before you rip me.

[Norm Peterson]

I wouldn't try to suggest that drag racing is 'simple' (and I fully agree with the points you make about track day running - if you came up on my bumper I'd point you by . . . in a heartbeat).

Only that in terms of competition in identical cars there's comparatively less difference between a rank newbie and an experienced hand at the dragstrip than there is at autocross.


Norm

[2cnd chance]

Practice makes perfect in any racing situation. I prefer to race where the race last longer than the prep.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by PYROLYSIS

They picked the boss as their favorite because they feel it's more fun to drive. At least when the mags picked the ZL1 even though it was slower on the strip, they backed up their decision by mentioning superior handling in addition to its easy to drive nature. Automobile isn't really saying anything other than the Boss stirs their emotions. Not really a good enough explanation on its own.

I think the information mentioned in the automobile webpage is the other way around:

'13 Shelby GT500 VS Camaro ZL1: '13 SHELBY GT500 IS THE WINNER. (better lap time).
(The ZL1 is also a great car, but 2nd. place).

'13 Camaro SS 1LE VS Mustang BOSS (& Laguna): '13 CAMARO SS 1LE IS THE WINNER. (better lap time & performance)
(The BOSS is also a great car, but 2nd. place)

other not in that web page, from simillar source:

-'11 Mustang GT Brembo package has better lap time than the Camaro SS.

-Mustang V6 also has better lap time than the Camaro V6

[Good2go]

Um, the ZL1 had a faster lap time than the GT500 in Automobile's test (by .7 seconds), and was picked as the overall winner, not 2nd place. The only event that the GT500 won was the 1/4 mile race.

Quote from the 3rd installment of the head-2-head:

"The GT500 will likely still win buyers over looking for the meanest, most brutal muscle car available from the factory. The power is insane, the look is intoxicating, and as we've found, the 662 hp on tap (along with launch control) makes it one of the quickest factory-built muscle cars. If quarter-mile times, a 200-mph top speed, horsepower bragging rights, and a raw, muscle-bound feel are what you seek in a muscle car, the GT500 is far and away your dream machine.

That said, the Camaro ZL1 objectively feels like the all-around victor. Despite its 82-hp and 268-pound disadvantage, it managed to set outstanding times on a road course, impressive times at the strip, and feels far more genteel and tractable on a daily basis. It may aim at the same customer demographic as the GT500, and share a similar powertrain configuration and price tag, but drive the two back to back, and they hardly feel as if they're direct competitors. The ZL1's well-rounded behavior, both on and off the track, and respectable performance numbers earn it a victory - though it may well be short lived. Ford is hard at work on a new Mustang that finally gains independent rear suspension. We know little about that car, but it should be obvious to all that the pony car wars are far from reaching a cease-fire."

[Bosse'sBoss]

Good2go,
I take it back, you where right:
LAP TIMES:
On Grattan (R&T), the ZL1 was the winner w/. 1:27.95 (vs 1:28.53)
On Gingerman (Automobile) , ZL1 winner w/. 1:44.53 (vs 1:45.21)
On Laguna Seca (MT), the GT500 was the winner w/. 1:38.69 (vs. 1:39.18)

Evaluation Results:
IL, MT, Automobile and C&D gave #1 to the ZL1
R&T gave #1 to the '13 GT500

Automobile, also compared the ZL1 to the Corvette Grand Sport. Both even. ZL1 faster, GS better handling.

Champs (on their league) history:
'11 Mustang GT 5.0 Brembo suspension package
'12 Mustang BOSS (and Laguna) on their league.
'12 Camaro ZL1 on its league.
'13 Camaro EL1
'15 GM or FORD (?)
And on the exotics league, still is the '10 Viper ACR ('13 not tested yet), just look at it's lap numbers in Nurburgring, compared to exotics costing 2X or 3X.
This are the best time for US sport cars, even that the brits from TOP GEAR don't want to accept it (but in USA-TG: the Viper was on top of their lap times).

[Bosse'sBoss]

I forget to mention that the '11 Corvette Z06 carbon goes side to side with the Nissan GTR, depending on which track, and only if it doesn't rain or snow, because then the GTR will be in front by a long distance

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

I forget to mention that the '11 Corvette Z06 carbon goes side to side with the Nissan GTR, depending on which track, and only if it doesn't rain or snow, because then the GTR will be in front by a long distance

Who drives on a track in the snow?

[Bosse'sBoss]

I mean, rain & snow in the road.
It was compared on one of the magazines. The driver of the zo6 carbon was having trouble keeping up with the GTR under those conditions, apparently what cause it was the low grip of the tires under that bad weather.

[2cnd chance]

The Z06 is a street legal race car, not a daily driver IMO. Id love one in black, mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Oh and AWD better be more competent in bad weather.