Are LS3 having same issues as L99?

[jhmurphy]

Thank you Hylton for all that info on the systems it sheds a lot of light on what the car is doing under the covers. I will hopefully get a chance to make a couple of runs with my car this evening. I will post my results when I do. Thanks again

[patriotpa]

Originally Posted by Hylton

After your generous gift to me, how can I say no to you John? Here we go....

Most of us think there are only 2 systems that can be affected by that Traction Control switch but actually there are 4 (main systems):

Antilock Braking Sytem (ABS)
Traction Control System (TCS)
Vehicle Electronic Stabiltiy (VES)
Engine Drag Control (EDC)

Each of these systems has a very specific purpose even though they may share control modules and sensors. I'll get into them in a sec...

The module which controls these systems is the Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM). This module does far more than just handle braking - it is the module which controls everything associated with tires being on the pavement and the car being in a straight line.

Some of the sensors which return data back to the EBCM include: the wheel speed sensor, the lateral accelerometer sensor, the yaw rate sensor and the steering wheel positioning sensor. Based on the names alone, you can imagine the type of calculations the EBCM has been engineered to make.

Anyways, getting back to the traction/braking systems - here's a bit of a run down in terms of what each system actually does.

ABS

Nothing you don't already know except that the system can release, hold or increase the amount of brake pressure to any wheel independently of each others requirement. It cannot however, increase more brake pressure than what the master cylinder is dishing out so if you are in a jam and your ABS is on, jump on that brake pedal as hard as you can so you can give the system the max amount of braking pressure if it needs it. If it's too much, don't worry, the system will figure out which wheel(s) to lighten up on.


TCS

The TCS actually has a "graduated" design. When the EBCM detects drive wheel slippage, the FIRST thing it does is sends a signal to the ECM telling it to reduce the amount of torque it is sending to those wheels. How does the ECM do that? It retards the timing and starts shutting down fuel injectors. (anyone starting to see how having TCS on affects seat of your pants acceleration?).

If this is not enough to control wheel spin, then the EBCM will begin applying brake pressure to the drive wheels in conjunction to what the ECM is doing. All this happens in miliseconds.


EDC

When a driver let's of the gas rapidly or downshifts to cause the rear tires to skid, this system will actually have the EBCM send a message to the ECM telling it to increase torque to the rear wheels (throttle increase) so that wheel lockup is prevented.


VES

I previously made a joke about yaw control but this car really does calculate the yaw rate in order to take the car out of a slide. In simple terms, the yaw rate is the amount of angle the car is sliding sideways. So if you want to drift the car, you must turn this system off or it will constantly be trying to bring the car back.

How does the system determine yaw rate? It uses 3 parameters: position of the steering wheel, the speed of the vehicle and sideways acceleration of the vehicle.

This system will generally kick in under performance driving but it will also kick in when you are driving on a loose gravel road and the rear end kicks out on you. This system will kick in even if you slide out on a gravel road while your foot is off the gas or brake pedal.



So all this to say what? There is a lot more going on in this car than you might think. Holding the traction control button for 5 seconds, turns all this stuff off and gives you a muscle car of old. I love all this technology but not when I want to light up my tires or hammer on the gas.

Great explanation! This nees to be a sticky!

[Dr Jkel]

Originally Posted by Hylton

After your generous gift to me, how can I say no to you John? Here we go....

Most of us think there are only 2 systems that can be affected by that Traction Control switch but actually there are 4 (main systems):

Antilock Braking Sytem (ABS)
Traction Control System (TCS)
Vehicle Electronic Stabiltiy (VES)
Engine Drag Control (EDC)

Each of these systems has a very specific purpose even though they may share control modules and sensors. I'll get into them in a sec...

The module which controls these systems is the Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM). This module does far more than just handle braking - it is the module which controls everything associated with tires being on the pavement and the car being in a straight line.

Some of the sensors which return data back to the EBCM include: the wheel speed sensor, the lateral accelerometer sensor, the yaw rate sensor and the steering wheel positioning sensor. Based on the names alone, you can imagine the type of calculations the EBCM has been engineered to make.

Anyways, getting back to the traction/braking systems - here's a bit of a run down in terms of what each system actually does.

ABS

Nothing you don't already know except that the system can release, hold or increase the amount of brake pressure to any wheel independently of each others requirement. It cannot however, increase more brake pressure than what the master cylinder is dishing out so if you are in a jam and your ABS is on, jump on that brake pedal as hard as you can so you can give the system the max amount of braking pressure if it needs it. If it's too much, don't worry, the system will figure out which wheel(s) to lighten up on.


TCS

The TCS actually has a "graduated" design. When the EBCM detects drive wheel slippage, the FIRST thing it does is sends a signal to the ECM telling it to reduce the amount of torque it is sending to those wheels. How does the ECM do that? It retards the timing and starts shutting down fuel injectors. (anyone starting to see how having TCS on affects seat of your pants acceleration?).

If this is not enough to control wheel spin, then the EBCM will begin applying brake pressure to the drive wheels in conjunction to what the ECM is doing. All this happens in miliseconds.


EDC

When a driver let's of the gas rapidly or downshifts to cause the rear tires to skid, this system will actually have the EBCM send a message to the ECM telling it to increase torque to the rear wheels (throttle increase) so that wheel lockup is prevented.


VES

I previously made a joke about yaw control but this car really does calculate the yaw rate in order to take the car out of a slide. In simple terms, the yaw rate is the amount of angle the car is sliding sideways. So if you want to drift the car, you must turn this system off or it will constantly be trying to bring the car back.

How does the system determine yaw rate? It uses 3 parameters: position of the steering wheel, the speed of the vehicle and sideways acceleration of the vehicle.

This system will generally kick in under performance driving but it will also kick in when you are driving on a loose gravel road and the rear end kicks out on you. This system will kick in even if you slide out on a gravel road while your foot is off the gas or brake pedal.



So all this to say what? There is a lot more going on in this car than you might think. Holding the traction control button for 5 seconds, turns all this stuff off and gives you a muscle car of old. I love all this technology but not when I want to light up my tires or hammer on the gas.

Hylton,

I really appreciate the information, I think this car amy be too smart for my own good, LOL. So if I am correct basically these systems may actually slow your car down to protect you when driving conditions are not ideal. I take it that the car may be actually faster when these systems are off if you are skilled enough to not use them.

So I also take it the Launch control takes all these systems in to account to provide the most safest launch or take off and keep the car in a relatively straight line.

As far as the small gift, it is nothing but Thanks for all the great information and help you provide and have provided to me and many others on this forum.
Preciate the info.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

Hylton,

So if I am correct basically these systems may actually slow your car down to protect you when driving conditions are not ideal. I take it that the car may be actually faster when these systems are off if you are skilled enough to not use them.

A GM engineer may come on here and disagree with me but you hit the nail on the head. Remember this when flooring it - the moment your rear wheels start to lose traction, TCS starts to cut off fuel and retards the timing. Nobody from GM will argue with that fact and so logically, you can conclude what detrimental effects this will have on performance.

Exactly as you have stated, whoever can run the car without triggering any of these systems or lose traction, will get the fastest time.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by jhmurphy

Thank you Hylton for all that info on the systems it sheds a lot of light on what the car is doing under the covers. I will hopefully get a chance to make a couple of runs with my car this evening. I will post my results when I do. Thanks again

No prob. Looking forward to hearing about your results. I still think it's all about the air your engine is sucking in. Wait until November in Florida - your car will be a screamer!

[Iwantone2]

Originally Posted by Hylton

No prob. Looking forward to hearing about your results. I still think it's all about the air your engine is sucking in. Wait until November in Florida - your car will be a screamer!

Yes, I'm also looking forward to the results...it may have something to do with me...

[caverman]

Originally Posted by Hylton

No prob. Looking forward to hearing about your results. I still think it's all about the air your engine is sucking in. Wait until November in Florida - your car will be a screamer!

Yeah...but that would suck if it's the case. Does that mean that in the summer time he can expect for the car to be slow but in the winter it will be fast?

If that's the case that alone would make me want the LS3 over the L99.

Surely GM would have to address that.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by caverman

Yeah...but that would suck if it's the case. Does that mean that in the summer time he can expect for the car to be slow but in the winter it will be fast?

If that's the case that alone would make me want the LS3 over the L99.

Surely GM would have to address that.

Air quality affects all performance engines, not just LS3's and L99's. The less oxygen and the more moisture you have in the air in your neck of the woods, the less power your engine will make. No different with Mustangs, Challengers or Silverados for that matter.

There is nothing for GM to address. It's just a fundamental condition which anyone making power with a combustion engine must face.

[SwiftCat]

Originally Posted by SGOS252382

If you want your L99 to run fast.

1. Make sure it has 93 octane from day 1.
2. Start running the engine through its rpm range (early) - like on the way home from the dealer. I'm not saying rag on your car and hit redline, but let the engine breath and hit a wide range of rpms.
3. Everytime you start your car up and drive it, try to do some wide open runs. They can be 20-50mph or 40-70mph. Just let the engine move through the rpm range under load.
4. Oil change by 1000 miles.

I know this doesn't follow the recommended break in. But if you want your L99 to run strong from day 1, I advise this break in strategy.

Oh, and to answer the OP's question. Yes, there have been reports of sluggish performance from some of the LS3's. There have also been a lot of guys running much slower than expected times at the track.


Here's a thread (Quote) that just started today.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37853

My LS3 doesnt feel all that fast!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Called dealer today to find out what grade of fuel they put in my camaro. He told me that they put 87 octane in all there cars even the corvette. I now have 93 octane in the car but still seems a little sluggish. Does anyone know how long I should unhook the battery for to get a complete reset of the computer?

Here's another Thread.
I picked up a CGM 2SS RS 2 nights ago, have only driven it about 30-40 miles so far but I'm just not impressed with the car.

Overall, I think I like it but I'm just not crazy about it. For starters, it feels incredibly slow. For a 426 HP V8 I was expecting a little more
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...+slow+sluggish

Just an FYI...that link you gave is based upon the comment of one person, not a list of complaints. Also, the person who posted commented on how the car felt, not on numbers produced. So far, I haven't heard any legitimate complaints on times put out by the LS3.

[acatlover13]

Those of us in Florida are used to this. It really has more to do with the humidity than the temp. I know this is a totally different car (and I can't wait to drive mine in 3 days!!!!!), but my '93 Z28 was honestly the fastest one I ever saw. I took it to the Super Chevy Show in Gainesville in April of '04, and there were two others there. Mine was an auto and the others were manuals. I outran both of them by at least two tenths. I had no mods except a K/N filter, but my secret was to ice down the intake until right before the run, and keep it cold until the run. It truly meant about a tenth and 1/2 difference.

Engines just run faster on denser/colder air. No big secret.

[Edrock]

Originally Posted by caverman

Please make me feel better that the LS3 is not having the same tuning issues the L99s are. I’m a little nervous that the LS3 won’t run as fast as I would expect it to.

I see where GM has fixed Scott’s car and he said that he was able to keep up with a new Mustang the other day. I’m glad to hear that he got his car running better but “keeping up with a Mustang”? He should be walking on a Mustang! There was another OP with an L99 (albeit still with a slow tune) that got beat by a new Mustang.

Anyone have any stories of their LS3 tearing up a Mustang or Challenger or something? Please make me feel better.

It doesn’t make me want the Camaro less but I sure hope they don’t start getting a reputation for being slow.

No issue whatsoever so far.

[Jayhawk500]

Okay,
After reading the whole thread.
The only question I have is, "Does the LS3 engine also have the 4 modes Hylton was talking about or is it just for the L99's?"
I've tried the 5 second hold and only got it into Comp mode.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk500

Okay,
After reading the whole thread.
The only question I have is, "Does the LS3 engine also have the 4 modes Hylton was talking about or is it just for the L99's?"
I've tried the 5 second hold and only got it into Comp mode.

You didn't hold it down long enough. Press on the button and don't let up until you see the trac and abs lights come on.

[SwiftCat]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk500

Okay,
After reading the whole thread.
The only question I have is, "Does the LS3 engine also have the 4 modes Hylton was talking about or is it just for the L99's?"
I've tried the 5 second hold and only got it into Comp mode.

Most of the "modes" you're wondering about are in regard to various things that both cars have (ie ABS, traction control, etc), but things such as Active fuel management are exclusive to the L99.
To answer your question about comp mode, both cars have the same config.:
1.) tap once for TC off; TC off shows up on digital display.
2.) tap twice (slowly) for Comp mode (limited traction control/limited stabilitrac). Comp mode will temporarily light up on digital display.
3.) hold down for 7 second to turn both traction control and stabilitrac completely off for "insane mode" to experience full control of car. When you do this, you'll see both icons light up in digital display to indicate both options are turned off.
Enjoy!