Chassis stiffeners and strut braces.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by dms

It is my opinion if you are going to road race and subject your Camaro to hours and hours, of off the charts stress, with R compound tires, I would recommend a strut mount brace. But lets be logical on a street driven, and lets say a VERY aggressive street driven or even an occassional track day. Will you see a difference?

So lets think about it. In a full drift mode, it appears that there was close to 2mm change in the bracket. And lets assume that change was in fact the accumulation of changes in both the inner strut towers. So both the strut tower moved a total of .078 inches. So lets say each strut tower moved .040 inches. This is about the gap of a average spark plug. Now what does that mean in terms of alignment changes?

So the upper strut bushing moves .040 inches and it is SAY 2 FEET from the actual balljoint. So I can do the math, but the actual movement of the tire/alignment might be .002 to .005 inches. that might make a camber change of .001 degrees, which no alignment machine in the country could measure. So the actual effect or influence of the controlling the upper movement in almost not even measureable or noticable. If you are noticing it, it is the same issue as when I wash my car and it looks pretty, which makes it drive better.

Whether you use Pedder, or any other suspension company out there, I think it is more prudent to invest your hard earned money on other upgrades that will make an actual handling difference. Granted it does look pretty cool. So if you are looking to make your engine compartment cooler, get it.

Now there are many cars out there that just aggressive street driving will permenantly alter the upper strut towers with negative affects. The 2010 Camaro is not one of those. This is the reason Pedders did not waste its time on R&D for them because we do make strut tower braces. It is also the same reason we do not make a front lower control arm bushing. The OE unit works perfect in all driving conditions. This is also the reason we do not make a lower outer rear control arm bushing like others do because this bushing is seriously stoutly, and we cannot improve on it.

So for $300+ there are a lot of upgrades that should be done that you can actually make a significant difference.

Thanks
mike
dms

All due respect, there are so many assumptions that are wrong with your math I do not know where to start to address it. It is unfortunate that you seem to be missing the point, not to mention the fundamental concept of chassis bracing, and vehicle dynamics in general. As an actual engineering company, we offer our customers the satisfaction of knowing we have done the design an analysis necessary to justify a components design and strength. While I appreciate the challenge of conveying valuable information to you, I am afraid your argument is circular in nature and unfortunately there is no amount of evidence that will satisfy you. Agree to disagree I guess. I'm glad all the other manufacturers understand.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by 2010 Bumblebee

Exactly which bushings are you talking about? Trailing arms & differential housing bushing? The hotchicks brace looks like it might help a bit also. I was thinking about getting trailing arms with polyurethane bushings and the hotchicks brace. Does anyone know if there is a driveshaft loop that will bolt in with the hotchicks brace?

Hi 2010 Bumblebee, the Pfadt Rear Trailing Arms are stronger and lighter than the OEM components, and the kit includes ALL the bushings needed for the complete installation. These are integral units to eliminate wheel hop, and prevent the bending that some have seen on hard launches. The OEM arms are not up to the task apparently, as people have proven on this forum. This is why we engineered these as a complete solution to this area. Check out the thread and pics and please let me know if you have any questions on these:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70029

[Aaron Pfadt]

Chassis rigidity is about much more than alignment change. The video that we published showed a huge lack of torsional stiffness in the front end of the Zeta chassis. We saw that 2mm (more actually) of deflection simply leaving the parking lot going through a normal dip like everyone encounters every day. It is just a demonstration that the Zeta chassis is soft and designed as a passenger sedan, not a performance car. The Pfadt Strut tower brace is an easy way to remove a significant amount of chassis flex.

Comparing the effects of a chassis brace to race tires is ludicrous. Anyone who has used them understands that they (tires) are the single biggest thing you can do to increase vehicle grip. What is important however is that given that you are on equal tires, all of the little things are correct to give you an advantage.

Suspension is very similar to weight reduction. You are not going to find one proverbial chunk of lead under your passenger seat that you can remove to get 300 lbs out of the car, you are going to find 30 little items that you can remove that will sum up to the 300 lbs. With the suspension/chassis you are going to make 30 small incremental improvements that when summed up make a huge change in the vehicle dynamics. The strut tower brace is one of those pieces.

-Aaron

[JusticePete]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Benjamen Disraeli

If numbers were the sole answer to performance, there would be no actual racing, just number crunching and comparison of data with the best set of numbers being the winner on a computer. It doesn't work that way.

While engineering data is valuable it is only part of the analysis. We do our initial engineering and then we test. We revise and test again, We collect more data and then live with a car in the real world. That is why we disagree on the NEED for a chassis brace on a street car. Our real world experience on the street and on the tract doesn't support a NEED in a street car.

If a chassis brace is so critical to performance in the VE, VZ and ZETA platforms, why is the Pedders G8 performing like a Z06 and doing so with a HUGE weight and tire disadvantage at open and fast New Jersey Motorsports Park? Why does the Pedders GTO run just off Corvette times? Why does the Pedders Camaro perform like a Z06 on the demanding and technical Gingerman Raceway without a chassis brace? If a Monaro that was 7 model years old when introduced as a new model to the USA as a GTO in 2004 is still squeak and rattle free at at 100K why would ANYONE suggest a 5th Gen will become a rattle trap without a chassis brace. The same is true of the older CTS and G8. There is NOTHING that suggests a 5th Gen will be prone to rattles. So why would ANYONE suggest you need a chassis brace to avoid squeaks and rattles?

What works on race cars is not always best for street cars. There is a huge amount of information available in book and through college and university programs to explain the differences. There are numerous consulting firms in my backyard. Some of my test drivers are OE suspension engineers. They are all additional resources to the ENGINEERS that I have available to me through Pedders. SO WHAT? Doesn't EVERY suspension company have engineer and engineering data?????

YOU DON"T NEED ME, an ENGINEER or ANYONE ELSE to help you decide. YOU DECIDE by doing your OWN research and taking test drives.

You can experience first hand what the REAL 5th Gen Camaro is like after 100K -- Drive a 2004 to 2006 GTO. (A GTO is what would have followed in build quality the 4th Gen) Then drive a 6th Gen Camaro (Pontiac G8). They are available with 30K plus. Toss in a high mileage CTS. What GM calls a 5th Gen, I call a 7th Gen, because your 2010 Camaro has evolved not from the 4th Gen direct to a 5th Gen, but from the VZ GTO / Commodore / Monaro and the VE Commodore / Pontiac G8 into the best of the series as a better vehicle than any that preceded it and what came before it was are really good vehicles.

No one is arguing with any company over the effects of triangulating structure on a race car. We all KNOW what that will do. The debate is about the benefit to a street car and in particular a well built 2010 Camaro. Let's cut through all the BS, skip the sales pitch from ALL of us. Do what you guys do best. Drive some cars and report back what you find. An ideal opportunity would be to come down to Back Street Performance where you should be able to ride in almost ALL of these vehicles. Then you will know.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...street+humbler

We'll be doing 28 Point Inspections, installations, corner weighting, car show, with food and drinks. It is always best to get your seat in a car and feel the difference. of course if you are afraid to ride in my 5th Gen without any braces, I'll understand

As long as I have taken this long to post in this thread I'll take it one step further. It has been suggested that Pedders does not offer chassis braces. That is not accurate. Not only do we offer them, I am in the midst of a chassis project that absolutely requires one. The front sub-frame ends well short of the mounting area for the front sway bar. In between the front sub-frame and sway bar is nothing but sheet metal. allowing the sway bar mounting area to move independently of the sub-frame. The bigger the sway bar the worse the situation becomes. On this particular vehicle you can bolt on a chassis brace and feel the difference leaving the driveway. It is a pronounced weakness in the vehicle and the brace is actually NEEDED.

Every chassis is different, so treat them differently. If that puts us at odds with others in the industry, so be it.

[Mr Twisty]

Aaron, I never would imply they're useless, but they're just way down on my list of 'gotta have'.

Here's a little snippet of what we knew to be an issue with any one that would be driving aggressivly.....

Step up the pace to full kill in an attempt to gun down the fleeter GT500 and the Camaro's reflexes begin to falter. It's relatively nimble for its size and quite well-balanced, but in quick transitions there is an odd yaw delay from the chassis — a half-beat of time between the action at the helm and actual chassis motion. We noticed it in the slalom, too, where the Camaro ceded ground to the others with its 65.8-mph result. The source of the slack is not obvious. Our guesses include squishy subframe mounts or tire sidewalls.

[PfadtRacing]

Fair enough!

We agree with those observations and have developed solid subframe mounts to help address that issue. People get nervous when think about solid mounts, but in the Camaro there are so many levels of rubber/poly damping that mounting the subframe with solid mounts is not an issue.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Aaron Pfadt

It is just a demonstration that the Zeta chassis is soft and designed as a passenger sedan, not a performance car.
-Aaron

I wonder what Al Oppenhieser and his TEAM of engineers that worked on two continents to build a world class performance car -- the 2010 Camaro -- would say about this? I'll answer for him. A bone stock Camaro ran the ring in 8.20 To put that into perspective, the 2008 Cobalt SS did the deed in 8:22, along with the BMW E46 M3 and the last generation BMW M Coupe, followed by the Lotus Exige S and Porsche Cayman S at 8:25.

Telling people people that an OE Camaro is NOT a performance car but a soft chassis designed like a sedan is EXACTLY why we will debate you across the forum. It ran faster than John Heinracy's favorite race car -- a Cobalt. It beat a LOTUS. Now there is a company known for terrible engineering, lame weak chassis design, poor handling cars An OE Camaro is a very fine well built performance car and that is not an opinion, it is a statement of fact backed by performance against Lotus and Posche with their best drivers behind the wheel at the Nurburing.





So now we know that according to you the Lotus Exige S, BMW E46 M3, BMW M Coupe and Porsche Cayman S are ( that are all SLOWER than the 5th Gen ) must have soft chassis design, be derived from passenger sedans and are NOT performance cars.

One more time -- The 5th Gen is a well engineered automobile and in complete OE trim is a terrific performance car that does not NEED a chassis brace or any other aftermarket products to be a world class performance car. GM and Chevy have already proved that at the Ring. Period. End of story. Pedderised it runs Z06 times, in OE bone stock form beat a Porcshe, Lotus and BMW. The 5th Gen doesn't need anything being sold by ANY suspension company to be a great car -- it already is. People buy from all of us because they want to personalise or take their cars to a level beyond OE. They do it because the WANT to not because they NEED to or because the OE Camaro is a soft chassis, derived from a sedan vehicle that NEEDS something aftermarket to be a world class car.

For the record -- ZETA is a Holden Commodore and a G8. ZETA II is unique to the Camaro. ZETA II Camaro performance refinements are all detailed in my prior posts.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

Fair enough!

We agree with those observations and have developed solid subframe mounts to help address that issue. People get nervous when think about solid mounts, but in the Camaro there are so many levels of rubber/poly damping that mounting the subframe with solid mounts is not an issue.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I wonder what Al Oppenhieser and his TEAM of engineers that worked on two continents to build a world class performance car -- the 2010 Camaro -- would say about this? I'll answer for him. A bone stock Camaro ran the ring in 8.20 To put that into perspective, the 2008 Cobalt SS did the deed in 8:22, along with the BMW E46 M3 and the last generation BMW M Coupe, followed by the Lotus Exige S and Porsche Cayman S at 8:25.

Telling people people that an OE Camaro is NOT a performance car but a soft chassis designed like a sedan is EXACTLY why we will debate you across the forum. It ran faster than John Heinracy's favorite race car -- a Cobalt. It beat a LOTUS. Now there is a company known for terrible engineering, lame weak chassis design, poor handling cars An OE Camaro is a very fine well built performance car and that is not an opinion, it is a statement of fact backed by performance against Lotus and Posche with their best drivers behind the wheel at the Nurburing.





So now we know that according to you the Lotus Exige S, BMW E46 M3, BMW M Coupe and Porsche Cayman S are ( that are all SLOWER than the 5th Gen ) must have soft chassis design, be derived from passenger sedans and are NOT performance cars.

One more time -- The 5th Gen is a well engineered automobile and in complete OE trim is a terrific performance car that does not NEED a chassis brace or any other aftermarket products to be a world class performance car. GM and Chevy have already proved that at the Ring. Period. End of story. Pedderised it runs Z06 times, in OE bone stock form beat a Porcshe, Lotus and BMW. The 5th Gen doesn't need anything being sold by ANY suspension company to be a great car -- it already is. People buy from all of us because they want to personalise or take their cars to a level beyond OE. They do it because the WANT to not because they NEED to or because the OE Camaro is a soft chassis, derived from a sedan vehicle that NEEDS something aftermarket to be a world class car.

For the record -- ZETA is a Holden Commodore and a G8. ZETA II is unique to the Camaro. ZETA II Camaro performance refinements are all detailed in my prior posts.

PLEASE - let's everyone stay on topic and don't even go near another company. I encourage everyone to continue to comment but be very careful to stay away from arguing. There is a wealth of information we have the potnential to read and digest, and I'd hate to have to shut it down and delete what could lead into a bunch of bickering. Please - let's talk about YOUR products and leave comments directed at another company out of this thread. Educate us - don't push us away with bickering or suggestive tones

On that note, I'm considering a blend of component from both companies - honestly. I love the solid subframe mounts (despite the cost but having seen these in person, and in action on the video). I'm loving the control arms and such. Now, is the only part of the chassis Pfadt is questioning the integrity of the front of the car, since you don't offer SFCs?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Now, is the only part of the chassis Pfadt is questioning the integrity of the front of the car, since you don't offer SFCs?

We have a list of potential products about a mile long! Like everything, we have to prioritize so don't think that just because we haven't launched something that we have a certain opinion about it.

We chose to pursue the solid mounts first because they are the most critical component to tighten up the rear suspension and they stiffen the chassis by tying it together.

At Pfadt we never lose sight of the fact that ride quality is very important. An upgrade that adds performance (define that however you like) but that deteriorates your comfort isn't going to make you very happy. We never forget that and work very hard to find the right balance.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

We have a list of potential products about a mile long! Like everything, we have to prioritize so don't think that just because we haven't launched something that we have a certain opinion about it.

We chose to pursue the solid mounts first because they are the most critical component to tighten up the rear suspension and they stiffen the chassis by tying it together.

At Pfadt we never lose sight of the fact that ride quality is very important. An upgrade that adds performance (define that however you like) but that deteriorates your comfort isn't going to make you very happy. We never forget that and work very hard to find the right balance.

FWIW - can totally appropriate where you're coming from

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

I am aware of 2 different domestic platforms that the manufacturer classify them as Performance vehicles, that do not have strut braces yet one of them I have documented well over 1/4 inch strut to strut movement at maximum driving levels. In fact, the right front inner strut bucket flexes so much within 25,000 miles of normal aggressive driving, it changes location.

Aaron did a really coil job of documenting the movement and I am thankful that he did, because it confirmed the control that we thought the Camaro body has. I have shown that this movement does not affect alignment. And for major aggressive street play with frequent track play, you will not have enough movement to affect short or long term positioning of the strut towers. This is again one of the reasons the Camaro is as heavy as she is. Now if you are building a full blown racing Camaro, that is a hole new ball game and yes, you should have a strut brace. Case in point, Pedders was involved with GM Racing when there was a GM Racing on the development of the GS Koni Series Camaro that they built for Riley's Technologies. We supply a bunch of bushings for this ride. GM built a strut tower brace for this Camaro, as well as a full racing role cage. But the movement for aggressive street is not enough to exceed the torsional rigidity of the chassis like it does on the above vehicles I mentioned. At $300-$350, there are far more important components to upgrade to than this. Granted they look really cool. So if you are into "Impression Ratio instead of Compression Ratio", or have tons of money and already have a full suspension, then get them.

But for me, the money should go into bushings before even considering the strut tower brace, or in fact any brace for the Camaro for that matter.

mike
dms

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

FWIW - can totally appropriate where you're coming from

I'llt a video for you late next week, actually I'll be making the video expecially for you.

[JusticePete]

Our 5th Gens are sooo well built. Have you all seen these pictures? Take a look at ZETA II, the BEST most structurally sound Camaro ever built. It ain't no soft sedan. This is a performance car with the structural guts to back it up.










These were originally posted in this thread which is a GREAT post! http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ssis+stiffness

In prior generation Camaros the owner had to add all kinds of bracing to make the car perform on track. In the 2919, GM did the work for you. They built them into the monocoque. That is why we are generating eye popping numbers on the skid pad and track, The 5th Gen is so well built it responds incredibly well to higher rate dampers, coils, bushes and bars. You bought a GREAT car from Chevy, enjoy it knowing it is solid as a Chevy rock.

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Our 5th Gens are sooo well built. Have you all seen these pictures? Take a look at ZETA II, the BEST most structurally sound Camaro ever built. It ain't no soft sedan. This is a performance car with the structural guts to back it up.

These were originally posted in this thread which is a GREAT post! http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ssis+stiffness

In prior generation Camaros the owner had to add all kinds of bracing to make the car perform on track. In the 2919, GM did the work for you. They built them into the monocoque. That is why we are generating eye popping numbers on the skid pad and track, The 5th Gen is so well built it responds incredibly well to higher rate dampers, coils, bushes and bars. You bought a GREAT car from Chevy, enjoy it knowing it is solid as a Chevy rock.

Nice find! Thanks Pete